Arguments for (1) Scala vs. Java (2) RIA with Lift (and Swing)

Here's a similar thread from just a week ago, with some relevant content:

http://scala-programming-language.1934581.n4.nabble.com/Help-for-Present...

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 9:05 AM, Normen Müller
wrote:
> He,
>
> as an employee of my new employer I would like to promote Scala within the
> company.
>
> For this I need telling (and Java developers understandable) arguments why
> to integrate Scala into an existing Java environment and ultimately why to
> entirely move to Scala.
>
> `` Java vs. Scala''
>
> Where can I find documentation (websites, talks, ...) on this topic?
>
> Well would also be arguments on the complexity of the integration into
> existing Java environments, cost reduction, robustness improvement,
> efficiency improvement, safety improvement, maintainability reduction and
> easing of extensibility.
>
> Since I believe that in such a ``convition process'' one should not mention
> the well-founded theoretical arguments for Scala right right at the
> beginning, it would be great if the arguments start on an abstract, not to
> say, on a shallow level. At the end of each line of argument an in-depth
> (theoretical) argument may follow, though.
>
> `` RIA with lift (and Swing)''
>
> If I'm at it: In the course of the integration / transition to Scala, I
> would like to promote even Lift, although I have not yet used this framework
> myself (but would like to).
>
> In the near future my employer would like to develop a Rich Internet
> Application (RIA). Currently Java is favored.
>
> So my question is: can one develop a RIA with Lift? Here I must admit that I
> am not quite familar with these techniques and RIAs, in particular. So any
> documentation on this topic is also more than welcome.
>
> I would also like to know how far one can integrate GUI elements in a RIA
> via Lift, ie. whether one can use, for example, Swing. Swing was internally
> proposed as an option for a RIA, but as I said can not judge these issues
> yet.
>
> Any help/pointers for my two big questions
>
> `` La Scala vs. Java''in general and
> `` RIA with lift (and Swing)''
>
> would be super helpful! I don't want to mess up the introduction to
> Scala...;)
>
> Cheers,
>  /nm
>

Normen,

In terms of Scala vs. Java as a language, the advantages are simple: 50%-75% fewer lines of code and that translates to higher developer productivity and more maintainable code.  Scala's immutable data types lead to fewer defects.

In terms of using Lift for building RIAs, it depends on your RIA platform.  I've been using Lift with Cappuccino ( http://280north.com/ ) and the integration is quite simple (e.g., http://frothy.liftweb.net ).  Cappuccino plus Atlas (the GUI builder) leads to the best GUI development cycle I've ever seen (but I'm partial to OS X's, interface builder).  Tyler (co-author of the Definitive Guide to Lift) is doing a Lift/ExtJS project... so if ExtJS is your RIA platform of choice, I expect to see explicit support for the non-GPL parts of ExtJS in Lift pretty soon.

If you're thinking GWT, there was recently a bake-off between Lift, GWT, and JSF/RichFaces.  The result was a recommendation for Lift and the Lift app had the fewest lines of code (including mark-up).

In terms of building very scalable, consumer apps with Lift, I think @HarryH from Foursquare makes the most compelling arguments.  See:
https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dcbpz3ck_24f3v83ggz
http://www.vimeo.com/8057986
https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dcbpz3ck_25czcns2c2

You might also suggest that some members of your team attend the Scala Lift Off San Francisco (September 24th, just after JavaOne http://scalaliftoff.com ).  HarrryH from Foursquare, Alex Payne from Bank Simple (formerly Twitter) and others will kick off the event discussing their choice of using Scala and Lift in production, the strengths and weaknesses, and if Alex's case, why he's choosing Scala a second time around for yet another high profile start-up.  If you're EU based, we're having a Scala Lift Off in London on October 7th and 8th, but I don't think Harry or Alex will be there.

If you want to contact me privately, we can talk more candidly about your situation and your company's need and tech choices to date.  That will help me better understand how to communicate effectively about Scala and Lift with your team.

Thanks,

David

On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Normen Müller <normen [dot] mueller [at] googlemail [dot] com> wrote:

He,

as an employee of my new employer I would like to promote Scala within the company.

For this I need telling (and Java developers understandable) arguments why to integrate Scala into an existing Java environment and ultimately why to entirely move to Scala.

`` Java vs. Scala''

Where can I find documentation (websites, talks, ...) on this topic?

Well would also be arguments on the complexity of the integration into existing Java environments, cost reduction, robustness improvement, efficiency improvement, safety improvement, maintainability reduction and easing of extensibility.

Since I believe that in such a ``convition process'' one should not mention the well-founded theoretical arguments for Scala right right at the beginning, it would be great if the arguments start on an abstract, not to say, on a shallow level. At the end of each line of argument an in-depth (theoretical) argument may follow, though.

`` RIA with lift (and Swing)''

If I'm at it: In the course of the integration / transition to Scala, I would like to promote even Lift, although I have not yet used this framework myself (but would like to).

In the near future my employer would like to develop a Rich Internet Application (RIA). Currently Java is favored.

So my question is: can one develop a RIA with Lift? Here I must admit that I am not quite familar with these techniques and RIAs, in particular. So any documentation on this topic is also more than welcome.

I would also like to know how far one can integrate GUI elements in a RIA via Lift, ie. whether one can use, for example, Swing. Swing was internally proposed as an option for a RIA, but as I said can not judge these issues yet.

Any help/pointers for my two big questions

`` La Scala vs. Java''in general and
`` RIA with lift (and Swing)''

would be super helpful! I don't want to mess up the introduction to Scala...;)

Cheers,
 /nm

--
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Blog: http://goodstuff.im
Surf the harmonics

We recently evaluated ZK (zkoss.org) and Vaadin for enterprise applications. (Note that GWT was an early candidate but it chains your project for life to Java source code--not good if you want to work with scala, groovy, jruby, etc. It also lacks expressiveness and efficient development process of other frameworks.) For our enterprise web app, a server-side-ajax approach was the sweet spot. ZK and Vaadin were evaluated for use with Java. But I also put demos together using scala. Was very easy since both frameworks use java libraries, rather than java source code. Ultimately we settled on ZK for its maturity, robust production grade components, and not boxing our designers in. We can still "easily" use jquery, raw javascript, css, etc. if we choose. Good luck!

-Erik

On Aug 10, 2010, at 1:05 AM, Normen Müller wrote:

> He,
>
> as an employee of my new employer I would like to promote Scala within the company.
>
> For this I need telling (and Java developers understandable) arguments why to integrate Scala into an existing Java environment and ultimately why to entirely move to Scala.
>
> `` Java vs. Scala''
>
> Where can I find documentation (websites, talks, ...) on this topic?
>
> Well would also be arguments on the complexity of the integration into existing Java environments, cost reduction, robustness improvement, efficiency improvement, safety improvement, maintainability reduction and easing of extensibility.
>
> Since I believe that in such a ``convition process'' one should not mention the well-founded theoretical arguments for Scala right right at the beginning, it would be great if the arguments start on an abstract, not to say, on a shallow level. At the end of each line of argument an in-depth (theoretical) argument may follow, though.
>
> `` RIA with lift (and Swing)''
>
> If I'm at it: In the course of the integration / transition to Scala, I would like to promote even Lift, although I have not yet used this framework myself (but would like to).
>
> In the near future my employer would like to develop a Rich Internet Application (RIA). Currently Java is favored.
>
> So my question is: can one develop a RIA with Lift? Here I must admit that I am not quite familar with these techniques and RIAs, in particular. So any documentation on this topic is also more than welcome.
>
> I would also like to know how far one can integrate GUI elements in a RIA via Lift, ie. whether one can use, for example, Swing. Swing was internally proposed as an option for a RIA, but as I said can not judge these issues yet.
>
> Any help/pointers for my two big questions
>
> `` La Scala vs. Java''in general and
> `` RIA with lift (and Swing)''
>
> would be super helpful! I don't want to mess up the introduction to Scala...;)
>
> Cheers,
> /nm