Re: Re: Commercial Eclipse plugin

On Wednesday September 9 2009, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:
> What does that milestone consist of?

It could only be:

On Tuesday September 8 2009, Jan Kotek wrote:
> * full Scala support (syntax, auto complete, wizards, hierarchy views, searches etc)
> * implicit conversions aware code assistant
> * refactoring across java and scala code
> * java to scala conversion wizards
> * Lift support
> * ScalaTest support
> * XML and parsers support
> * code generation wizards
> * etc...

(We'll cut him some slack on "etc...")

RRS

I'm slightly disappointed here, as some functionality is clearly going to have to rely on the Scala compiler, and this means using the (open-source) work that Miles, Martin, etc. have already put into adding hooks to the Scala compiler for IDE support.
As an example, how else could you handle code-completion against a synthetic member from a compiler plugin?

Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows great disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by using a high proportion of work that others have freely given.
It may actually be a bad thing for the language if this proposed plugin delivers on the promises.  By diverting corporate funds that might have otherwise been donated, this will slow down adoption amongst the companies unwilling to pay for such a plugin (when there is a free alternative available).
In the long term this would also reduce the user base for anyone looking to sell bells-and-whistles plugins, as well as impacting those of us looking to market our Scala skills.

Please, don't risk harming the language and the community in this way.


On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Randall R Schulz <rschulz@sonic.net> wrote:

On Wednesday September 9 2009, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:
> What does that milestone consist of?

It could only be:

On Tuesday September 8 2009, Jan Kotek wrote:
>  * full Scala support (syntax, auto complete, wizards, hierarchy views, searches etc)
>  * implicit conversions aware code assistant
>  * refactoring across java and scala code
>  * java to scala conversion wizards
>  * Lift support
>  * ScalaTest support
>  * XML and parsers support
>  * code generation wizards
>  * etc...

(We'll cut him some slack on "etc...")


RRS

On Wed, Sep 09, 2009 at 11:51:05PM +0100, Kevin Wright wrote:
> Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows
> great disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by
> using a high proportion of work that others have freely given.

This is ridiculous. You couldn't boot your machine without relying on
vast troves of freely given code. It was freely given. That's why it's
referred to as "freely given" and not "given with strings".

> Please, don't risk harming the language and the community in this way.

Please don't discourage people from writing scala code.

Scala's not an anti-commercial language and will not be negatively
impacted by commercial products. The IntelliJ IDEA plugin is
commercial (though for no additional cost above IDEA itself), and in
my opinion has helped Scala somewhat.

Let the best plugin win. Chances are that this effort will come to
nothing, but let's try not to tarnish it with an unofficial Guilt
Public License.

Next you'll be on about "The Feel of Scala"..

2009/9/9 Kevin Wright :
> I'm slightly disappointed here, as some functionality is clearly going to
> have to rely on the Scala compiler, and this means using the (open-source)
> work that Miles, Martin, etc. have already put into adding hooks to the
> Scala compiler for IDE support.
> As an example, how else could you handle code-completion against a synthetic
> member from a compiler plugin?
>
> Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows great
> disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by using a
> high proportion of work that others have freely given.
> It may actually be a bad thing for the language if this proposed plugin
> delivers on the promises. By diverting corporate funds that might have
> otherwise been donated, this will slow down adoption amongst the companies
> unwilling to pay for such a plugin (when there is a free alternative
> available).
> In the long term this would also reduce the user base for anyone looking to
> sell bells-and-whistles plugins, as well as impacting those of us looking to
> market our Scala skills.
>
> Please, don't risk harming the language and the community in this way.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday September 9 2009, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:
>> > What does that milestone consist of?
>>
>> It could only be:
>>
>> On Tuesday September 8 2009, Jan Kotek wrote:
>> > * full Scala support (syntax, auto complete, wizards, hierarchy views,
>> > searches etc)
>> > * implicit conversions aware code assistant
>> > * refactoring across java and scala code
>> > * java to scala conversion wizards
>> > * Lift support
>> > * ScalaTest support
>> > * XML and parsers support
>> > * code generation wizards
>> > * etc...
>>
>> (We'll cut him some slack on "etc...")
>>
>>
>> RRS
>
>

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Kevin
Wright wrote:
> Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows great
> disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by using a
> high proportion of work that others have freely given.

I've no problem with this: the code has been released under a
permissive open source license and quite deliberately so. If Jan can
do what he claims, from scratch, in the the kind of timescale that
he's talking about then I'll be the first to congratulate him because,
let's face, I'm the only one who knows how incredibly tall an order
that would be.

On the other hand, it hasn't escaped my notice that the one month
mentioned for the first "milestone" roughly coincides with the
expected release date of the 2.8.0 beta. If that "milestone" is just
an unofficial build of the offical Scala IDE for Eclipse with a EUR 40
price tag attached, then I presume the community will be smart enough
to know where they really should be going to invest for the future.

Cheers,

Miles

~$58

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Naftoli Gugenheim <naftoligug@gmail.com> wrote:

Just out of curiosity how much is that in USD?

-------------------------------------
Miles Sabin<miles@milessabin.com> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Kevin
Wright<kev.lee.wright@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows great
> disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by using a
> high proportion of work that others have freely given.

I've no problem with this: the code has been released under a
permissive open source license and quite deliberately so. If Jan can
do what he claims, from scratch, in the the kind of timescale that
he's talking about then I'll be the first to congratulate him because,
let's face, I'm the only one who knows how incredibly tall an order
that would be.

On the other hand, it hasn't escaped my notice that the one month
mentioned for the first "milestone" roughly coincides with the
expected release date of the 2.8.0 beta. If that "milestone" is just
an unofficial build of the offical Scala IDE for Eclipse with a EUR 40
price tag attached, then I presume the community will be smart enough
to know where they really should be going to invest for the future.

Cheers,


Miles

--
Miles Sabin
tel: +44 (0)7813 944 528
skype:  milessabin
http://www.chuusai.com/
http://twitter.com/milessabin

--
http://erikengbrecht.blogspot.com/

Just out of curiosity how much is that in USD?

-------------------------------------
Miles Sabin wrote:

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Kevin
Wright wrote:
> Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows great
> disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by using a
> high proportion of work that others have freely given.

I've no problem with this: the code has been released under a
permissive open source license and quite deliberately so. If Jan can
do what he claims, from scratch, in the the kind of timescale that
he's talking about then I'll be the first to congratulate him because,
let's face, I'm the only one who knows how incredibly tall an order
that would be.

On the other hand, it hasn't escaped my notice that the one month
mentioned for the first "milestone" roughly coincides with the
expected release date of the 2.8.0 beta. If that "milestone" is just
an unofficial build of the offical Scala IDE for Eclipse with a EUR 40
price tag attached, then I presume the community will be smart enough
to know where they really should be going to invest for the future.

Cheers,

Miles

I am not going to argue. If I find something on Eclipse plugin usefull
I will use it. Idea plugin is also under Apache license...

About auto completion: I am going to write my own parser. I need lot
of stuff which scalac and Idea parser does not provide. And Scala
syntax is really simple, way better then ABAP.

Also thanks for compliment. You are first who actually believes, I can
finish this plugin :-)

Regards,
Jan

PS: you are not community, get over it.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Kevin
Wright wrote:
> I'm slightly disappointed here, as some functionality is clearly going to
> have to rely on the Scala compiler, and this means using the (open-source)
> work that Miles, Martin, etc. have already put into adding hooks to the
> Scala compiler for IDE support.
> As an example, how else could you handle code-completion against a synthetic
> member from a compiler plugin?
>
> Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows great
> disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by using a
> high proportion of work that others have freely given.
> It may actually be a bad thing for the language if this proposed plugin
> delivers on the promises.  By diverting corporate funds that might have
> otherwise been donated, this will slow down adoption amongst the companies
> unwilling to pay for such a plugin (when there is a free alternative
> available).
> In the long term this would also reduce the user base for anyone looking to
> sell bells-and-whistles plugins, as well as impacting those of us looking to
> market our Scala skills.
>
> Please, don't risk harming the language and the community in this way.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Randall R Schulz wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday September 9 2009, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:
>> > What does that milestone consist of?
>>
>> It could only be:
>>
>> On Tuesday September 8 2009, Jan Kotek wrote:
>> >  * full Scala support (syntax, auto complete, wizards, hierarchy views,
>> > searches etc)
>> >  * implicit conversions aware code assistant
>> >  * refactoring across java and scala code
>> >  * java to scala conversion wizards
>> >  * Lift support
>> >  * ScalaTest support
>> >  * XML and parsers support
>> >  * code generation wizards
>> >  * etc...
>>
>> (We'll cut him some slack on "etc...")
>>
>>
>> RRS
>
>

Jan,
  Let me add that I would happily pay $60 for a Scala IDE with fairly rudimentary features so long as it is rock solid in the features it has.  I don't need code completion or error detection or anything like that.  I just want syntax highlighting, "make" and "make clean" buttons, simple code outlining/navigation, and hyperlinks from compiler errors to source code.

-Erik

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Erik Engbrecht <erik.engbrecht@gmail.com> wrote:

~$58

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 7:24 PM, Naftoli Gugenheim <naftoligug@gmail.com> wrote:

Just out of curiosity how much is that in USD?

-------------------------------------
Miles Sabin<miles@milessabin.com> wrote:

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:51 PM, Kevin
Wright<kev.lee.wright@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows great
> disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by using a
> high proportion of work that others have freely given.

I've no problem with this: the code has been released under a
permissive open source license and quite deliberately so. If Jan can
do what he claims, from scratch, in the the kind of timescale that
he's talking about then I'll be the first to congratulate him because,
let's face, I'm the only one who knows how incredibly tall an order
that would be.

On the other hand, it hasn't escaped my notice that the one month
mentioned for the first "milestone" roughly coincides with the
expected release date of the 2.8.0 beta. If that "milestone" is just
an unofficial build of the offical Scala IDE for Eclipse with a EUR 40
price tag attached, then I presume the community will be smart enough
to know where they really should be going to invest for the future.

Cheers,


Miles

--
Miles Sabin
tel: +44 (0)7813 944 528
skype:  milessabin
http://www.chuusai.com/
http://twitter.com/milessabin

--
http://erikengbrecht.blogspot.com/

--
http://erikengbrecht.blogspot.com/

On Thu, Sep 10, 2009 at 12:02 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

Scala's not an anti-commercial language and will not be negatively
impacted by commercial products.  The IntelliJ IDEA plugin is
commercial (though for no additional cost above IDEA itself), and in
my opinion has helped Scala somewhat.

Let the best plugin win.  Chances are that this effort will come to
nothing, but let's try not to tarnish it with an unofficial Guilt
Public License.

Next you'll be on about "The Feel of Scala"..

I'll grant you, I'm not a hardcore Ayn Rand convert, but I'm not anti-commercial either...
I do have some genuine fears here that having two possible plugins will hurt adoption.  It's a sad but true fact of psychology that when two possibilities are offered then "neither" tends to get picked fairly often, the war of attrition between blu-ray and hd-dvd demonstrates that fairly effectively.
What I really want is to see a clear unambiguous path into Scala and an increase in adoption which should (hopefully, fingers crossed) help the commercial prospects of the language.

 

2009/9/9 Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wright@googlemail.com>:
> I'm slightly disappointed here, as some functionality is clearly going to
> have to rely on the Scala compiler, and this means using the (open-source)
> work that Miles, Martin, etc. have already put into adding hooks to the
> Scala compiler for IDE support.
> As an example, how else could you handle code-completion against a synthetic
> member from a compiler plugin?
>
> Although I'm happy to pay for genuine innovation, I feel that it shows great
> disrespect to the community when someone seeks to make profit by using a
> high proportion of work that others have freely given.
> It may actually be a bad thing for the language if this proposed plugin
> delivers on the promises.  By diverting corporate funds that might have
> otherwise been donated, this will slow down adoption amongst the companies
> unwilling to pay for such a plugin (when there is a free alternative
> available).
> In the long term this would also reduce the user base for anyone looking to
> sell bells-and-whistles plugins, as well as impacting those of us looking to
> market our Scala skills.
>
> Please, don't risk harming the language and the community in this way.
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 11:17 PM, Randall R Schulz <rschulz@sonic.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday September 9 2009, Naftoli Gugenheim wrote:
>> > What does that milestone consist of?
>>
>> It could only be:
>>
>> On Tuesday September 8 2009, Jan Kotek wrote:
>> >  * full Scala support (syntax, auto complete, wizards, hierarchy views,
>> > searches etc)
>> >  * implicit conversions aware code assistant
>> >  * refactoring across java and scala code
>> >  * java to scala conversion wizards
>> >  * Lift support
>> >  * ScalaTest support
>> >  * XML and parsers support
>> >  * code generation wizards
>> >  * etc...
>>
>> (We'll cut him some slack on "etc...")
>>
>>
>> RRS
>
>



--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

About auto completion: I am going to write my own parser. I need lot
of stuff which scalac and Idea parser does not provide. And Scala
syntax is really simple, way better then ABAP.

Also thanks for compliment. You are first who actually believes, I can
finish this plugin :-)

I believe that someone skilled enough at eclipse plug-in development could match and surpass the IDEA support with 6 months.  I also have no reason to doubt your ability.
However, without leaning on the compiler, there are going to be some situations that are difficult or impossible to handle.  Path-dependent types will be one such problem, as will synthetic members generated by a compiler plugin.  This means that you'll have to reuse work already done.
So please, seriously consider that any work you do would be better as an addition (paid or otherwise) to the existing plugin, and not an alternative.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 5:12 PM, Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wright@googlemail.com> wrote:

About auto completion: I am going to write my own parser. I need lot
of stuff which scalac and Idea parser does not provide. And Scala
syntax is really simple, way better then ABAP.

Also thanks for compliment. You are first who actually believes, I can
finish this plugin :-)

I believe that someone skilled enough at eclipse plug-in development could match and surpass the IDEA support with 6 months.  I also have no reason to doubt your ability.
However, without leaning on the compiler, there are going to be some situations that are difficult or impossible to handle.  Path-dependent types will be one such problem, as will synthetic members generated by a compiler plugin.  This means that you'll have to reuse work already done.
So please, seriously consider that any work you do would be better as an addition (paid or otherwise) to the existing plugin, and not an alternative.

Sometimes one head is better than two.  Sometimes fresh eyes and a fresh perspective avoids nasty design paths.  How about just cutting Jan some slack about his licensing and development choices, letting him get to work and seeing what he does.  Those that think it's worth paying for can pony up their money and the rest of the folks can choose not to.



--
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Git some: http://github.com/dpp

Kevin Wright writes:

> the war of attrition between blu-ray and hd-dvd demonstrates that fairly
effectively.

Both HD-DVD and BD-ROM were quite epensive.
Stand-alone players, devices for computer and notebook, movie making and movies
in shops.

PlayStation3 was told to be overpriced game console, yer underpriced BD player
- what's more to say ?

Clearly, when i had to spend hundreds and hundreds of USD/Euro - i'd would be
very cautious and any doubt would easily catch me by hand.

Ooohhh... and there are pirated rip's in the net, that are both less expensive
and frequently more comfortable. That also gave much against BD/HD both.

Now, how this is similar to Eclipse/Scala ?
Would you say, that the mere existense of Eclipse/NetBeans/IDEA/JBuilder/etc
harmed Java adoption ?

Would you say, that using for free both Scala plugins paying only with ones
time, would be same frightening risky to anyone, like purchasing expensive BD/
HD player ?

I see no similarity between Scala and Blue-Ray.

Naftoli Gugenheim writes:

>> Just out of curiosity how much is that in USD?
> an unofficial build of the offical Scala IDE for Eclipse with a EUR 40

As always, "google is your friend" :-)

http://www.google.ru/search?client=opera&rls=ru&q=40+euro+in
+usd&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

40 euros is absolutely nothing when compared to the cost of training developers up to speed, so other than the psychological benefit of Mile's plugin being free there is no price difference involved here.

This isn't about cost, it's about making a choice when faced with two options, when there is a good chance that one option will leave you well placed for the future and the other option will leave you with something obsolete and unsupported.
Really, there's no such thing as two choices, the real decision made by adopters will be:- chose the free plugin, which may lose- choose the paid plugin, which may lose- wait and see, until I have a better idea which is more likely to win

I know that we're already in that situation with IDEA and netbeans, but the critical difference here is that decisions on IDE are much more likely to have already been based on other factors.



On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Arioch <the_Arioch@nm.ru> wrote:

Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wright@...> writes:

> the war of attrition between blu-ray and hd-dvd demonstrates that fairly
effectively.

Both HD-DVD and BD-ROM were quite epensive.
Stand-alone players, devices for computer and notebook, movie making and movies
in shops.

PlayStation3 was told to be overpriced game console, yer underpriced BD player
- what's more to say ?

Clearly, when i had to spend hundreds and hundreds of USD/Euro - i'd would be
very cautious and any doubt would easily catch me by hand.

Ooohhh... and there are pirated rip's in the net, that are both less expensive
and frequently more comfortable. That also gave much against BD/HD both.


Now, how this is similar to Eclipse/Scala ?
Would you say, that the mere existense of Eclipse/NetBeans/IDEA/JBuilder/etc
harmed Java adoption ?

Would you say, that using for free both Scala plugins paying only with ones
time, would be same frightening risky to anyone, like purchasing expensive BD/
HD player ?

I see no similarity between Scala and Blue-Ray.

There is also a fourth choice:
- choose the plugin available now, and if and when it loses, switch to the better one.

IMHO, chances are that "if and when" is not going to happen. Best of all, you don't waste a lot of time waiting and seeing.

By the way, let me shamelessly plug Miles's plugin here:

For me, it works quite well enough to get real work done, effectively. It has a lot of potential still ahead of it, but that is a good thing.

Andreas


From: Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wright@googlemail.com>
To: Arioch <the_Arioch@nm.ru>
Cc: scala-tools@listes.epfl.ch
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2009 7:22:55 AM
Subject: Re: [scala-tools] Re: Commercial Eclipse plugin

[...]Really, there's no such thing as two choices, the real decision made by adopters will be:- chose the free plugin, which may lose- choose the paid plugin, which may lose- wait and see, until I have a better idea which is more likely to win[...]


On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Arioch <the_Arioch [at] nm [dot] ru" target="_blank" href="mailto:the_Arioch@nm.ru" rel="nofollow">the_Arioch@nm.ru> wrote:

Kevin Wright <kev.lee.wright@...> writes:

> the war of attrition between blu-ray and hd-dvd demonstrates that fairly
effectively.

Both HD-DVD and BD-ROM were quite epensive.
Stand-alone players, devices for computer and notebook, movie making and movies
in shops.

PlayStation3 was told to be overpriced game console, yer underpriced BD player
- what's more to say ?

Clearly, when i had to spend hundreds and hundreds of USD/Euro - i'd would be
very cautious and any doubt would easily catch me by hand.

Ooohhh... and there are pirated rip's in the net, that are both less expensive
and frequently more comfortable. That also gave much against BD/HD both.


Now, how this is similar to Eclipse/Scala ?
Would you say, that the mere existense of Eclipse/NetBeans/IDEA/JBuilder/etc
harmed Java adoption ?

Would you say, that using for free both Scala plugins paying only with ones
time, would be same frightening risky to anyone, like purchasing expensive BD/
HD player ?

I see no similarity between Scala and Blue-Ray.

Hi,

It is nearly month now, time for update.

I was studying Scalac and JDT architecture in general. Existing
plugin was very useful as introduction to Scala compiler, AST etc..
But I am not using its code.

Current plugin uses Equinox Aspects to hook itself into JDT. More at
here (and other articles):
< http://contraptionsforprogramming.blogspot.com/2009/02/jdt-wont-do-that.... >
But it seems as dead end to me.

Equinox Aspects were developed by Andrew Eisenberg who is also working
Groovy Eclipse plugin. But Groovy plugin is not using this. Their
decided to modify Eclipse JDT directly. It is described here:
http://blog.springsource.com/2009/07/30/a-groovier-eclipse-experience/

I decided to 'rip off' Groovy plugin instead. It will provide very
same functionality as described in blog (replace Groovy by Scala of
course). This way is also more natural and probably way more stable.

Groovy plugin uses EPL licence. It means that small part of my code
will be opensource (JDT integration).

First milestone will not be this month. I have lot of unit tests, but
nothing stable so far. I will probably release after Scala 2.8 enters
beta.

Regards,
Jan