Google's new language, Noop, implemented in Scala

Good luck debugging :-)

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Warren Henning <warren.henning@gmail.com> wrote:

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Javalike-Language-Noop-473613/?kc=rss

http://code.google.com/p/noop/

Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
build to work.

anther new language!It's implemented in Scala?I'm sorry I do not understand.
Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
I'm sorry I'm confused.


On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning <warren.henning@gmail.com> wrote:

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Javalike-Language-Noop-473613/?kc=rss

http://code.google.com/p/noop/

Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
build to work.

--
Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
Tel:(86-21)3852 6101

It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu :
> anther new language!
> It's implemented in Scala?
> I'm sorry I do not understand.
> Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
> I'm sorry I'm confused.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Jav...
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>>
>> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
>> build to work.
>
>
>
> --
> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>

Compiler is written in Scala? What's the reason?
Noop have his own grammar and API? Can he invoke Java or Scala Code?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
> anther new language!
> It's implemented in Scala?
> I'm sorry I do not understand.
> Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
> I'm sorry I'm confused.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning <warren.henning@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Javalike-Language-Noop-473613/?kc=rss
>>
>> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>>
>> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
>> build to work.
>
>
>
> --
> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>



--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

--
Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
Tel:(86-21)3852 6101

Because Scala's the best JVM language, I'd guess.

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu :
> Compiler is written in Scala? What's the reason?
> Noop have his own grammar and API? Can he invoke Java or Scala Code?
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ricky Clarkson
> wrote:
>>
>> It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu :
>> > anther new language!
>> > It's implemented in Scala?
>> > I'm sorry I do not understand.
>> > Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
>> > I'm sorry I'm confused.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning
>> >
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Jav...
>> >>
>> >> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>> >>
>> >> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
>> >> build to work.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>> > Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ricky Clarkson
>> Java Programmer, AD Holdings
>> +44 1565 770804
>> Skype: ricky_clarkson
>> Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>

Is it a good news for Scala?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

Because Scala's the best JVM language, I'd guess.

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
> Compiler is written in Scala? What's the reason?
> Noop have his own grammar and API? Can he invoke Java or Scala Code?
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
>> > anther new language!
>> > It's implemented in Scala?
>> > I'm sorry I do not understand.
>> > Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
>> > I'm sorry I'm confused.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning
>> > <warren.henning@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Javalike-Language-Noop-473613/?kc=rss
>> >>
>> >> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>> >>
>> >> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
>> >> build to work.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>> > Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ricky Clarkson
>> Java Programmer, AD Holdings
>> +44 1565 770804
>> Skype: ricky_clarkson
>> Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>



--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

--
Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
Tel:(86-21)3852 6101

Ideally, you'd expect it to be a self-hosting language, perhaps the use of scala in its compiler is a temporary measure until such time that they can write a compiler in NOOP? Because, if they can't write a NOOP compiler in NOOP, then it shows that the language is not that powerful.

I guess it is also a chicken/egg type scenario - I imagine the first primitive versions of scalac were not written in scala, right? You have the same problem with new Operating Systems too. Getting both new compilers and OSes to be eventually self-hosting would require an initial bootstrapping phase where you have to rely on external tools.

Ishaaq

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>

Is it a good news for Scala?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

Because Scala's the best JVM language, I'd guess.

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
> Compiler is written in Scala? What's the reason?
> Noop have his own grammar and API? Can he invoke Java or Scala Code?
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
>> > anther new language!
>> > It's implemented in Scala?
>> > I'm sorry I do not understand.
>> > Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
>> > I'm sorry I'm confused.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning
>> > <warren.henning@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Javalike-Language-Noop-473613/?kc=rss
>> >>
>> >> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>> >>
>> >> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
>> >> build to work.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>> > Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ricky Clarkson
>> Java Programmer, AD Holdings
>> +44 1565 770804
>> Skype: ricky_clarkson
>> Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>



--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

--
Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
Tel:(86-21)3852 6101

On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Ishaaq Chandy wrote:
> I guess it is also a chicken/egg type scenario - I imagine the first
> primitive versions of scalac were not written in scala, right?

Scala was first implemented in Java. Then once it was self-hosting the
compiler was re-implemented in Scala.

To answer your question though - I think it is good news for scala - but not for the reasons you think. Its good because competition is good.

Right now there aren't many statically compiled languages on the JVM, I only know of Java and Scala (and now NOOP). Anyone know of any others?

Ishaaq


2009/9/18 Ishaaq Chandy <ishaaq@gmail.com>

Ideally, you'd expect it to be a self-hosting language, perhaps the use of scala in its compiler is a temporary measure until such time that they can write a compiler in NOOP? Because, if they can't write a NOOP compiler in NOOP, then it shows that the language is not that powerful.

I guess it is also a chicken/egg type scenario - I imagine the first primitive versions of scalac were not written in scala, right? You have the same problem with new Operating Systems too. Getting both new compilers and OSes to be eventually self-hosting would require an initial bootstrapping phase where you have to rely on external tools.

Ishaaq

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>

Is it a good news for Scala?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

Because Scala's the best JVM language, I'd guess.

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
> Compiler is written in Scala? What's the reason?
> Noop have his own grammar and API? Can he invoke Java or Scala Code?
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
>> > anther new language!
>> > It's implemented in Scala?
>> > I'm sorry I do not understand.
>> > Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
>> > I'm sorry I'm confused.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning
>> > <warren.henning@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Javalike-Language-Noop-473613/?kc=rss
>> >>
>> >> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>> >>
>> >> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
>> >> build to work.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>> > Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ricky Clarkson
>> Java Programmer, AD Holdings
>> +44 1565 770804
>> Skype: ricky_clarkson
>> Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>



--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

--
Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
Tel:(86-21)3852 6101

JavaFX？

Ishaaq Chandy wrote:
>
> To answer your question though - I think it is good news for scala - but
> not
> for the reasons you think. Its good because competition is good.
>
> Right now there aren't many statically compiled languages on the JVM, I
> only
> know of Java and Scala (and now NOOP). Anyone know of any others?
>
> Ishaaq
>
>
> 2009/9/18 Ishaaq Chandy
>
>> Ideally, you'd expect it to be a self-hosting language, perhaps the use
>> of
>> scala in its compiler is a temporary measure until such time that they
>> can
>> write a compiler in NOOP? Because, if they can't write a NOOP compiler in
>> NOOP, then it shows that the language is not that powerful.
>>
>> I guess it is also a chicken/egg type scenario - I imagine the first
>> primitive versions of scalac were not written in scala, right? You have
>> the
>> same problem with new Operating Systems too. Getting both new compilers
>> and
>> OSes to be eventually self-hosting would require an initial bootstrapping
>> phase where you have to rely on external tools.
>>
>> Ishaaq
>>
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu
>>
>>> Is it a good news for Scala?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Ricky Clarkson <
>>> ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Because Scala's the best JVM language, I'd guess.
>>>>
>>>> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu :
>>>> > Compiler is written in Scala? What's the reason?
>>>> > Noop have his own grammar and API? Can he invoke Java or Scala Code?
>>>> >
>>>> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ricky Clarkson <
>>>> ricky.clarkson@gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu :
>>>> >> > anther new language!
>>>> >> > It's implemented in Scala?
>>>> >> > I'm sorry I do not understand.
>>>> >> > Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
>>>> >> > I'm sorry I'm confused.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > wrote:
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>
>>>> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Jav...
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't
>>>> get
>>>> the
>>>> >> >> build to work.
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > --
>>>> >> > Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>>>> >> > Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>>>> >> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Ricky Clarkson
>>>> >> Java Programmer, AD Holdings
>>>> >> +44 1565 770804
>>>> >> Skype: ricky_clarkson
>>>> >> Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>>>> > Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ricky Clarkson
>>>> Java Programmer, AD Holdings
>>>> +44 1565 770804
>>>> Skype: ricky_clarkson
>>>> Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>>> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

-----
My scala solutions for http://projecteuler.net/ Project Euler problems:
http://eastsun.javaeye.com/category/34059 Click here

Many people do not know Scala, but they focus on Google.Noop Compiler is written in Scala, they would ask what is Scala and learn it.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Ishaaq Chandy <ishaaq@gmail.com> wrote:

To answer your question though - I think it is good news for scala - but not for the reasons you think. Its good because competition is good.

Right now there aren't many statically compiled languages on the JVM, I only know of Java and Scala (and now NOOP). Anyone know of any others?

Ishaaq


2009/9/18 Ishaaq Chandy <ishaaq@gmail.com>

Ideally, you'd expect it to be a self-hosting language, perhaps the use of scala in its compiler is a temporary measure until such time that they can write a compiler in NOOP? Because, if they can't write a NOOP compiler in NOOP, then it shows that the language is not that powerful.

I guess it is also a chicken/egg type scenario - I imagine the first primitive versions of scalac were not written in scala, right? You have the same problem with new Operating Systems too. Getting both new compilers and OSes to be eventually self-hosting would require an initial bootstrapping phase where you have to rely on external tools.

Ishaaq

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>

Is it a good news for Scala?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

Because Scala's the best JVM language, I'd guess.

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
> Compiler is written in Scala? What's the reason?
> Noop have his own grammar and API? Can he invoke Java or Scala Code?
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
>> > anther new language!
>> > It's implemented in Scala?
>> > I'm sorry I do not understand.
>> > Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
>> > I'm sorry I'm confused.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning
>> > <warren.henning@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Javalike-Language-Noop-473613/?kc=rss
>> >>
>> >> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>> >>
>> >> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
>> >> build to work.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>> > Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ricky Clarkson
>> Java Programmer, AD Holdings
>> +44 1565 770804
>> Skype: ricky_clarkson
>> Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>



--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

--
Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
Tel:(86-21)3852 6101

--
Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
Tel:(86-21)3852 6101

> Many people do not know Scala, but they focus on Google.

Well, hmm, there are more and more books now about Scala.
At least here in Germany, Scala is in the IT press.
Conferences like the W-JAX introduce Scala Days a.s.o.

THAT will boost Scala.

> Noop Compiler is written in Scala, they would ask what is
> Scala and learn it.

If I would focus on Google and read the announce, I would
ask "what is Noop?" and learn it.

When I learned Groovy or Scala I did not ask in what
language their compilers are written.

Perhaps people will say: "Ah, Scala, that academic
functional language. So it seems good for compilers, but
I write applications and need an application language.
So let's look into Noop ..."

BTW: The grammar itsself is written in ANTLR, so no Parser Combinators.
The Build tool is buildr, and they use Ruby, not SBT with Scala.

Interesting mix ... would be interested in knowing their
reasons to select those tools. (But not enough to actively ask them ;-)
).

KR
Det

> BTW: The grammar itsself is written in ANTLR, so no Parser Combinators.
> The Build tool is buildr, and they use Ruby, not SBT with Scala.
>
> Interesting mix ... would be interested in knowing their
> reasons to select those tools. (But not enough to actively ask them ;-)
> ).

Parser combinators in Scala are far slower than ANTLR (because ANTLR
generates code). That said, Noop seems to be so early that they
haven't defined the syntax yet, so I'd stick with parser combinators
until that's done. As far as I can tell, adapting from parser
combinators to ANTLR would be quite straightforward because of how
parser combinator syntax deliberately mimics BNF.

As to Ruby for building, they probably just haven't realised how good
SBT is yet. :)

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

Because Scala's the best JVM language, I'd guess.

Haha, awesome.
 

2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
> Compiler is written in Scala? What's the reason?
> Noop have his own grammar and API? Can he invoke Java or Scala Code?
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> It's a language, whose compiler is currently written in Scala.
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>:
>> > anther new language!
>> > It's implemented in Scala?
>> > I'm sorry I do not understand.
>> > Noop is not framework or app, it is a language, it's a DSL?
>> > I'm sorry I'm confused.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 12:54 AM, Warren Henning
>> > <warren.henning@gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Application-Development/Google-Delivers-New-Javalike-Language-Noop-473613/?kc=rss
>> >>
>> >> http://code.google.com/p/noop/
>> >>
>> >> Haven't tried it but heard comments that other people couldn't get the
>> >> build to work.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
>> > Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ricky Clarkson
>> Java Programmer, AD Holdings
>> +44 1565 770804
>> Skype: ricky_clarkson
>> Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com
>
>
>
> --
> Global R&D Center,Shanghai China,Carestream Health, Inc.
> Tel:(86-21)3852 6101
>



--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

--
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Blog: klangism.blogspot.com
Twttr: viktorklang

Lift Committer - liftweb.com
AKKA Committer - akkasource.org
Cassidy - github.com/viktorklang/Cassidy.git
SoftPub founder: http://groups.google.com/group/softpub

Detering Dirk schrieb:
> The Build tool is buildr, and they use Ruby, not SBT with Scala.

Ah, that is why people consistently report being unable to build Noop:
http://www.hars.de/2009/02/buildr-on-ubuntu-intrepid.html

- Florian

AFAI can see this looks like a Google Code project rather than a Google Labs project.  

So I don't think the might Google will be marketing it.

Or if you get Google's beneficence by hosting on Google Code, perhaps someone should tell Mr Odersky ;-)










Florian Hars <hars@bik-gmbh.de>
18/09/2009 12:21 To Detering Dirk <Dirk.Detering@bitmarck.de> cc Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>, Ishaaq Chandy <ishaaq@gmail.com>, scala-user@listes.epfl.ch Subject Re: [scala-user] Google's new language, Noop, implemented in Scala




Detering Dirk schrieb:
> The Build tool is buildr, and they use Ruby, not SBT with Scala.

Ah, that is why people consistently report being unable to build Noop:
http://www.hars.de/2009/02/buildr-on-ubuntu-intrepid.html

- Florian

The LambdaTheUltimate thread about it suggests most of the project members are Google staff.

2009/9/18 <Ray.Mcdermott@toyota-europe.com>

AFAI can see this looks like a Google Code project rather than a Google Labs project.  

So I don't think the might Google will be marketing it.

Or if you get Google's beneficence by hosting on Google Code, perhaps someone should tell Mr Odersky ;-)










Florian Hars <hars@bik-gmbh.de>
18/09/2009 12:21 To Detering Dirk <Dirk.Detering@bitmarck.de> cc Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>, Ishaaq Chandy <ishaaq@gmail.com>, scala-user@listes.epfl.ch Subject Re: [scala-user] Google's new language, Noop, implemented in Scala




Detering Dirk schrieb:
> The Build tool is buildr, and they use Ruby, not SBT with Scala.

Ah, that is why people consistently report being unable to build Noop:
http://www.hars.de/2009/02/buildr-on-ubuntu-intrepid.html

- Florian

--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

and if you look at some of the files in their source repo, they are stamped with Google's copyright header:

http://code.google.com/p/noop/source/browse/src/main/noop/stdlib/Console.noop

2009/9/18 Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com>

The LambdaTheUltimate thread about it suggests most of the project members are Google staff.

2009/9/18 <Ray.Mcdermott@toyota-europe.com>

AFAI can see this looks like a Google Code project rather than a Google Labs project.  

So I don't think the might Google will be marketing it.

Or if you get Google's beneficence by hosting on Google Code, perhaps someone should tell Mr Odersky ;-)










Florian Hars <hars@bik-gmbh.de>
18/09/2009 12:21 To Detering Dirk <Dirk.Detering@bitmarck.de> cc Xuefeng Wu <benewu@gmail.com>, Ishaaq Chandy <ishaaq@gmail.com>, scala-user@listes.epfl.ch Subject Re: [scala-user] Google's new language, Noop, implemented in Scala




Detering Dirk schrieb:
> The Build tool is buildr, and they use Ruby, not SBT with Scala.

Ah, that is why people consistently report being unable to build Noop:
http://www.hars.de/2009/02/buildr-on-ubuntu-intrepid.html

- Florian

--
Ricky Clarkson
Java Programmer, AD Holdings
+44 1565 770804
Skype: ricky_clarkson
Google Talk: ricky.clarkson@gmail.com

On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

Parser combinators in Scala are far slower than ANTLR (because ANTLR
generates code).

Technically - so does parser combinators. It generates JVM bytecode via the scala compiler. There should be no advantage in what ANTLR and simelar tools do, except they use a better algorithm.

I have a feeling that it should be possible to improve parser combinators so they can be as fast. At least for the same subset of languages that can be parsed by ANTLR.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2009 at 7:38 PM, Baldur Norddahl
wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Ricky Clarkson
> wrote:
>>
>> Parser combinators in Scala are far slower than ANTLR (because ANTLR
>> generates code).
>
> Technically - so does parser combinators. It generates JVM bytecode via the
> scala compiler. There should be no advantage in what ANTLR and simelar tools
> do, except they use a better algorithm.

No, that's inaccurate. Parser combinators could generate JVM bytecodes
for parsing a language. Yes, currently the scala compiler compiles a
"specification" of a language given in terms of parser combinators to
JVM bytecodes. But these bytecodes are not able to parse the specified
language, but, instead, these bytecodes create a parser which then may
parse words of the language. It is the same as the distinction between
an interpreter and a compiler. Compiled parser combinator code is
still one level of abstraction more than the ANTLR solution. While the
Hotspot VM could possibly could eliminate much of the cost of this
additional layer of abstraction, you can gain some (even much)
performance by really *generating* a parser like ANTLR does.

Aside from this, it is a question of compilation phases: ANTLR
generates a parser generator ahead of time while parser combinators
run the specification only while parsing.

> I have a feeling that it should be possible to improve parser combinators so
> they can be as fast. At least for the same subset of languages that can be
> parsed by ANTLR.
You could compile a parser combinator specification to bytecodes but
that would probably imply that you would have to build a data
structure which represents the specification first. Right now a
specification (a parser) is, at runtime, a tree of referenced closures
and functions which may be called to parse a word of the language.
It's quite difficult to generate parsing code from there. I already
thought about doing a parser combinator compilation since I've created
a Scala DSL for bytecode generation. But before I've start to do this,
I've to clean things up in the bytecode DSL...

On Saturday September 19 2009, Baldur Norddahl wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 10:37 AM, Ricky Clarkson
>
> wrote:
> > Parser combinators in Scala are far slower than ANTLR (because
> > ANTLR generates code).
>
> Technically - so does parser combinators. It generates JVM bytecode
> via the scala compiler. There should be no advantage in what ANTLR
> and simelar tools do, except they use a better algorithm.
>
> I have a feeling that it should be possible to improve parser
> combinators so they can be as fast. At least for the same subset of
> languages that can be parsed by ANTLR.

ANTLR does have a backtracking mode as well as a memoizing mode, but
users are encouraged to disambiguate their grammars so these features
are not used. If they are used, then I suspect the ANTLR performance
advantage erodes. I haven't measured anything, though (in part 'cause I
have not yet implemented any given grammar in more than one parser
library / generator).

Randall Schulz

>> Parser combinators in Scala are far slower than ANTLR (because ANTLR
>> generates code).
>
> Technically - so does parser combinators. It generates JVM bytecode via the
> scala compiler.

Yeah. Shedloads of little anonymous classes. It can't do much better
than that without parser combinators having a code-generation phase,
as far as I know.

> I have a feeling that it should be possible to improve parser combinators so
> they can be as fast.

By giving them a code-generation phase.