Scala: Great potential, but not ready for production

Grumbling is *not* epidemic on open source projects: you don't hear a lot of Just Grumblers in the
Groovy and Ruby communities, for instance. It *is*, however, epidemic on functional programming
languages, probably because of the high percentage of mathematicians/predominantly academic computer
scientists kicking around -- academics + engineering of any kind == Just Grumbling.

If you don't believe me, do up a Venn diagram of Doctorates/Doctural Students to Just Grumblers.

~~ Robert Fischer.
Grails Training http://GroovyMag.com/training
Smokejumper Consulting http://SmokejumperIT.com
Enfranchised Mind Blog http://EnfranchisedMind.com/blog

Check out my book, "Grails Persistence with GORM and GSQL"!
http://www.smokejumperit.com/redirect.html

Blair Zajac wrote:
> Miles Sabin wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Erik Engbrecht
>> There are some prominent Scala community members who fall into the
>> fourth camp (we all know who they are) but they're rather few and far
>> between and there's a depressingly large constituency of Just
>> Grumblers.
>>
>> Just Grumbling isn't so bad if you keep it to yourself, but if done
>> publicly it has a generally depressive effect and acts as a
>> disincentive to the contributions which would cure the cause of the
>> grumbling.
>
> I think there's no reality to that. If you work on an open-source
> project, just expect it. Personally, I contribute my time to Subversion
> and am a committer on that project and we always get comments. The
> latest negative feedback is how it sucks as Subversion is not a
> distributed version control system. One just has to expect it if you're
> working in a public space.
>
>> Not enough time to contribute? I don't believe you ... I'd be happy
>> with even a couple of percent of the time that Scala users are getting
>> back in terms of productivity gains from using Scala over Java. And to
>> be clear, I'm not just calling for contributions for the Eclipse
>> plugin, I'm talking about the toolchain, the standard library,
>> Netbeans, Emacs, the whole shebang. We all benefit from a lively Scala
>> ecosystem.
>
> Subversion has helped the Scala community indirectly. Additionally,
> we're working on getting legal approval to open-sourcing a Scala
> database migration utility and some Spring integration code.
>
> Regards,
> Blair
>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Robert Fischer <robert.fischer@smokejumperit.com> wrote:

Grumbling is *not* epidemic on open source projects: you don't hear a lot of Just Grumblers in the Groovy and Ruby

Bah hah hah hah hah.

I spent 2 years in the Ruby community.  There were grumblers, flamers, and a whole bunch of other less than optimal displays pretty constantly.  Although the worst were the cool-aid drinkers who would en-masse flame anybody who broke from the the one true way.

I can't speak to the Groovy community, but I can speak to the Ruby community.

The Scala community is a far nicer place to be.  The Scala community contains far more caring and kind individuals.  A new person joined the Ruby community on a daily basis who was more obnoxious than even the most challenging personalities on this list on just about any vector including grumbling and pedanticness.

Whatever the qualities of the folks on this list are, there are fewer grumblers and they are more precise about problem and solution than the Ruby list (that includes the end user and developer lists.)

 

communities, for instance.  It *is*, however, epidemic on functional programming languages, probably because of the high percentage of mathematicians/predominantly academic computer scientists kicking around -- academics + engineering  of any kind == Just Grumbling.

If you don't believe me, do up a Venn diagram of Doctorates/Doctural Students to Just Grumblers.

~~ Robert Fischer.
Grails Training        http://GroovyMag.com/training
Smokejumper Consulting http://SmokejumperIT.com
Enfranchised Mind Blog http://EnfranchisedMind.com/blog

Check out my book, "Grails Persistence with GORM and GSQL"!
http://www.smokejumperit.com/redirect.html


Blair Zajac wrote:

Miles Sabin wrote:

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Erik Engbrecht
There are some prominent Scala community members who fall into the
fourth camp (we all know who they are) but they're rather few and far
between and there's a depressingly large constituency of Just
Grumblers.

Just Grumbling isn't so bad if you keep it to yourself, but if done
publicly it has a generally depressive effect and acts as a
disincentive to the contributions which would cure the cause of the
grumbling.

I think there's no reality to that.  If you work on an open-source project, just expect it.  Personally, I contribute my time to Subversion and am a committer on that project and we always get comments.  The latest negative feedback is how it sucks as Subversion is not a distributed version control system.  One just has to expect it if you're working in a public space.

Not enough time to contribute? I don't believe you ... I'd be happy
with even a couple of percent of the time that Scala users are getting
back in terms of productivity gains from using Scala over Java. And to
be clear, I'm not just calling for contributions for the Eclipse
plugin, I'm talking about the toolchain, the standard library,
Netbeans, Emacs, the whole shebang. We all benefit from a lively Scala
ecosystem.

Subversion has helped the Scala community indirectly.  Additionally, we're working on getting legal approval to open-sourcing a Scala database migration utility and some Spring integration code.

Regards,
Blair

--
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Git some: http://github.com/dpp

Can you name an academic grumbler in the Scala community?  The only academics I can think of are in EPFL, and they don't seem to grumble.

2009/2/18 Robert Fischer <robert.fischer@smokejumperit.com>

Grumbling is *not* epidemic on open source projects: you don't hear a lot of Just Grumblers in the Groovy and Ruby communities, for instance.  It *is*, however, epidemic on functional programming languages, probably because of the high percentage of mathematicians/predominantly academic computer scientists kicking around -- academics + engineering  of any kind == Just Grumbling.

If you don't believe me, do up a Venn diagram of Doctorates/Doctural Students to Just Grumblers.

~~ Robert Fischer.
Grails Training        http://GroovyMag.com/training
Smokejumper Consulting http://SmokejumperIT.com
Enfranchised Mind Blog http://EnfranchisedMind.com/blog

Check out my book, "Grails Persistence with GORM and GSQL"!
http://www.smokejumperit.com/redirect.html


Blair Zajac wrote:

Miles Sabin wrote:

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Erik Engbrecht
There are some prominent Scala community members who fall into the
fourth camp (we all know who they are) but they're rather few and far
between and there's a depressingly large constituency of Just
Grumblers.

Just Grumbling isn't so bad if you keep it to yourself, but if done
publicly it has a generally depressive effect and acts as a
disincentive to the contributions which would cure the cause of the
grumbling.

I think there's no reality to that.  If you work on an open-source project, just expect it.  Personally, I contribute my time to Subversion and am a committer on that project and we always get comments.  The latest negative feedback is how it sucks as Subversion is not a distributed version control system.  One just has to expect it if you're working in a public space.

Not enough time to contribute? I don't believe you ... I'd be happy
with even a couple of percent of the time that Scala users are getting
back in terms of productivity gains from using Scala over Java. And to
be clear, I'm not just calling for contributions for the Eclipse
plugin, I'm talking about the toolchain, the standard library,
Netbeans, Emacs, the whole shebang. We all benefit from a lively Scala
ecosystem.

Subversion has helped the Scala community indirectly.  Additionally, we're working on getting legal approval to open-sourcing a Scala database migration utility and some Spring integration code.

Regards,
Blair

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Miles Sabin wrote:
>
> And actually I think you're wrong about broader FP community as
> well: for instance, I don't see much grumbling on the Haskell lists
> or #haskell ... just lots of friendly cooperation.
I agree. #haskell currently has 638 users and keeping a friendly
demeanour in the channel has taken a lot of work from the channel
operators.

- --
Tony Morris
http://tmorris.net/

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On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Tony Morris wrote:
> Miles Sabin wrote:
> > And actually I think you're wrong about broader FP community as
> > well: for instance, I don't see much grumbling on the Haskell lists
> > or #haskell ... just lots of friendly cooperation.
>
> I agree. #haskell currently has 638 users and keeping a friendly
> demeanour in the channel has taken a lot of work from the channel
> operators.

The irony of you, of all people, making that comment is just too delicious ;-)

Not just a ridiculous buffoon, but a little (maybe unintentionally)
witty as well.

Cheers,

Miles

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Robert Fischer
wrote:
> Grumbling is *not* epidemic on open source projects: you don't hear a lot of
> Just Grumblers in the Groovy and Ruby communities, for instance. It *is*,
> however, epidemic on functional programming languages, probably because of
> the high percentage of mathematicians/predominantly academic computer
> scientists kicking around -- academics + engineering of any kind == Just
> Grumbling.
>
> If you don't believe me, do up a Venn diagram of Doctorates/Doctural
> Students to Just Grumblers.

I don't believe you and I'm sure you're wrong. This is emphatically
_not_ an academic vs. industry thing. Or if it is, it's to academia's
credit rather than industry's: the vast proportion of the
contributions to the Scala ecosystem come from a bunch of postgrads
and postdocs (not to mention professors ;-) at EPFL.

And actually I think you're wrong about broader FP community as well:
for instance, I don't see much grumbling on the Haskell lists or
#haskell ... just lots of friendly cooperation.

Cheers,

Miles

I agree there are flamers in Ruby -- lots of them. That's kind of Ruby's cultural schtick. My
experience was that grumblers tended to wander off: many of them have landed in Django, at least for
the time being.

I also very much agree that there is also a lot of "bwuh?" in Ruby mailing lists, which I chalk up
to the magical/dynamic nature of the language and its associated frameworks/libraries.

All in all, I'm pretty happy with the Scala community as a community. My assertion wasn't to knock
it. But there's a unique style of sarcastically-tinged conversation which I've found in Scala,
OCaml, (to a lesser extent) F#, my undergraduate math department, and that's about it.

~~ Robert.

David Pollak wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Robert Fischer
> > wrote:
>
> Grumbling is *not* epidemic on open source projects: you don't hear
> a lot of Just Grumblers in the Groovy and Ruby
>
>
> Bah hah hah hah hah.
>
> I spent 2 years in the Ruby community. There were grumblers, flamers,
> and a whole bunch of other less than optimal displays pretty
> constantly. Although the worst were the cool-aid drinkers who would
> en-masse flame anybody who broke from the the one true way.
>
> I can't speak to the Groovy community, but I can speak to the Ruby
> community.
>
> The Scala community is a far nicer place to be. The Scala community
> contains far more caring and kind individuals. A new person joined the
> Ruby community on a daily basis who was more obnoxious than even the
> most challenging personalities on this list on just about any vector
> including grumbling and pedanticness.
>
> Whatever the qualities of the folks on this list are, there are fewer
> grumblers and they are more precise about problem and solution than the
> Ruby list (that includes the end user and developer lists.)
>
>
>
> communities, for instance. It *is*, however, epidemic on functional
> programming languages, probably because of the high percentage of
> mathematicians/predominantly academic computer scientists kicking
> around -- academics + engineering of any kind == Just Grumbling.
>
> If you don't believe me, do up a Venn diagram of Doctorates/Doctural
> Students to Just Grumblers.
>
> ~~ Robert Fischer.
> Grails Training http://GroovyMag.com/training
> Smokejumper Consulting http://SmokejumperIT.com
> Enfranchised Mind Blog http://EnfranchisedMind.com/blog
>
> Check out my book, "Grails Persistence with GORM and GSQL"!
> http://www.smokejumperit.com/redirect.html
>
>
>
> Blair Zajac wrote:
>
> Miles Sabin wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Erik Engbrecht
> There are some prominent Scala community members who fall
> into the
> fourth camp (we all know who they are) but they're rather
> few and far
> between and there's a depressingly large constituency of Just
> Grumblers.
>
> Just Grumbling isn't so bad if you keep it to yourself, but
> if done
> publicly it has a generally depressive effect and acts as a
> disincentive to the contributions which would cure the cause
> of the
> grumbling.
>
>
> I think there's no reality to that. If you work on an
> open-source project, just expect it. Personally, I contribute
> my time to Subversion and am a committer on that project and we
> always get comments. The latest negative feedback is how it
> sucks as Subversion is not a distributed version control system.
> One just has to expect it if you're working in a public space.
>
> Not enough time to contribute? I don't believe you ... I'd
> be happy
> with even a couple of percent of the time that Scala users
> are getting
> back in terms of productivity gains from using Scala over
> Java. And to
> be clear, I'm not just calling for contributions for the Eclipse
> plugin, I'm talking about the toolchain, the standard library,
> Netbeans, Emacs, the whole shebang. We all benefit from a
> lively Scala
> ecosystem.
>
>
> Subversion has helped the Scala community indirectly.
> Additionally, we're working on getting legal approval to
> open-sourcing a Scala database migration utility and some Spring
> integration code.
>
> Regards,
> Blair
>
>
>
>
>
>

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Drop by #haskell-ops some time and we can discuss it.

Miles Sabin wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Tony Morris
> wrote:
>> Miles Sabin wrote:
>>> And actually I think you're wrong about broader FP community as
>>> well: for instance, I don't see much grumbling on the Haskell
>>> lists or #haskell ... just lots of friendly cooperation.
>> I agree. #haskell currently has 638 users and keeping a friendly
>> demeanour in the channel has taken a lot of work from the channel
>> operators.
>
> The irony of you, of all people, making that comment is just too
> delicious ;-)
>
> Not just a ridiculous buffoon, but a little (maybe unintentionally)
> witty as well.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Miles
>

- --
Tony Morris
http://tmorris.net/

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On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

You might mistake absolute statements, a firm grip on meanings not in common use and a lack of tact for aggression.  Sometimes it probably is aggression, but usually it's not.

Incidentally, I think #scala is similar in friendliness to #haskell, not least thanks to yourself.

A distinction I've had to point out in the past: #scala is at least as *helpful* as #haskell. I would not say that we're as friendly. :-)

Miles, Tony, could you two take this off list? It's not even "move it to scala-debate" territory at this point.

You might mistake absolute statements, a firm grip on meanings not in common use and a lack of tact for aggression.  Sometimes it probably is aggression, but usually it's not.

Incidentally, I think #scala is similar in friendliness to #haskell, not least thanks to yourself.

2009/2/18 Miles Sabin <miles@milessabin.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Tony Morris <tmorris@tmorris.net> wrote:
> Miles Sabin wrote:
> > And actually I think you're wrong about broader FP community as
> > well: for instance, I don't see much grumbling on the Haskell lists
> > or #haskell ... just lots of friendly cooperation.
>
> I agree. #haskell currently has 638 users and keeping a friendly
> demeanour in the channel has taken a lot of work from the channel
> operators.

The irony of you, of all people, making that comment is just too delicious ;-)

Not just a ridiculous buffoon, but a little (maybe unintentionally)
witty as well.

Cheers,


Miles

--
Miles Sabin
tel:    +44 (0)1273 720 779
mobile: +44 (0)7813 944 528
skype:  milessabin

I think the key word to look at in there is "some".

Naming no names, but while most of us are grumpy and irritable, I think by and large we try not to be condescending. :-)

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:52 PM, Jorge Ortiz <jorge.ortiz@gmail.com> wrote:

Some people disagree:

"The folks on the [Scala] IRC channel helped me when I got stuck, though in exchange, I frequently had to endure condescension from some of them."

vs

"[T]he [Clojure] discussion group and IRC channel have always been friendly and encouraging."

http://blog.n01se.net/?p=37

--j

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

You might mistake absolute statements, a firm grip on meanings not in common use and a lack of tact for aggression.  Sometimes it probably is aggression, but usually it's not.

Incidentally, I think #scala is similar in friendliness to #haskell, not least thanks to yourself.

2009/2/18 Miles Sabin <miles@milessabin.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Tony Morris <tmorris@tmorris.net> wrote:
> Miles Sabin wrote:
> > And actually I think you're wrong about broader FP community as
> > well: for instance, I don't see much grumbling on the Haskell lists
> > or #haskell ... just lots of friendly cooperation.
>
> I agree. #haskell currently has 638 users and keeping a friendly
> demeanour in the channel has taken a lot of work from the channel
> operators.

The irony of you, of all people, making that comment is just too delicious ;-)

Not just a ridiculous buffoon, but a little (maybe unintentionally)
witty as well.

Cheers,


Miles

--
Miles Sabin
tel:    +44 (0)1273 720 779
mobile: +44 (0)7813 944 528
skype:  milessabin

Some people disagree:

"The folks on the [Scala] IRC channel helped me when I got stuck, though in exchange, I frequently had to endure condescension from some of them."

vs

"[T]he [Clojure] discussion group and IRC channel have always been friendly and encouraging."

http://blog.n01se.net/?p=37

--j

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

You might mistake absolute statements, a firm grip on meanings not in common use and a lack of tact for aggression.  Sometimes it probably is aggression, but usually it's not.

Incidentally, I think #scala is similar in friendliness to #haskell, not least thanks to yourself.

2009/2/18 Miles Sabin <miles@milessabin.com>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Tony Morris <tmorris@tmorris.net> wrote:
> Miles Sabin wrote:
> > And actually I think you're wrong about broader FP community as
> > well: for instance, I don't see much grumbling on the Haskell lists
> > or #haskell ... just lots of friendly cooperation.
>
> I agree. #haskell currently has 638 users and keeping a friendly
> demeanour in the channel has taken a lot of work from the channel
> operators.

The irony of you, of all people, making that comment is just too delicious ;-)

Not just a ridiculous buffoon, but a little (maybe unintentionally)
witty as well.

Cheers,


Miles

--
Miles Sabin
tel:    +44 (0)1273 720 779
mobile: +44 (0)7813 944 528
skype:  milessabin

I remember people getting flames earlier on in the Grails mailing lists.  It certainly had (at least pre 1.0) its share of kool-aide drinkers.


On Feb 18, 2009, at 6:06 PM, David Pollak <feeder.of.the.bears@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Robert Fischer < (robert [dot] fischer [at] smokejumperit [dot] com> wrote:

Grumbling is *not* epidemic on open source projects: you don't hear a lot of Just Grumblers in the Groovy and Ruby

Bah hah hah hah hah.

I spent 2 years in the Ruby community.  There were grumblers, flamers, and a whole bunch of other less than optimal displays pretty constantly.  Although the worst were the cool-aid drinkers who would en-masse flame anybody who broke from the the one true way.

I can't speak to the Groovy community, but I can speak to the Ruby community.

The Scala community is a far nicer place to be.  The Scala community contains far more caring and kind individuals.  A new person joined the Ruby community on a daily basis who was more obnoxious than even the most challenging personalities on this list on just about any vector including grumbling and pedanticness.

Whatever the qualities of the folks on this list are, there are fewer grumblers and they are more precise about problem and solution than the Ruby list (that includes the end user and developer lists.)

 

communities, for instance.  It *is*, however, epidemic on functional programming languages, probably because of the high percentage of mathematicians/predominantly academic computer scientists kicking around -- academics + engineering  of any kind == Just Grumbling.

If you don't believe me, do up a Venn diagram of Doctorates/Doctural Students to Just Grumblers.

~~ Robert Fischer.
Grails Training        http://GroovyMag.com/training
Smokejumper Consulting http://SmokejumperIT.com
Enfranchised Mind Blog http://EnfranchisedMind.com/blog

Check out my book, "Grails Persistence with GORM and GSQL"!
http://www.smokejumperit.com/redirect.html


Blair Zajac wrote:

Miles Sabin wrote:

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 1:06 PM, Erik Engbrecht
There are some prominent Scala community members who fall into the
fourth camp (we all know who they are) but they're rather few and far
between and there's a depressingly large constituency of Just
Grumblers.

Just Grumbling isn't so bad if you keep it to yourself, but if done
publicly it has a generally depressive effect and acts as a
disincentive to the contributions which would cure the cause of the
grumbling.

I think there's no reality to that.  If you work on an open-source project, just expect it.  Personally, I contribute my time to Subversion and am a committer on that project and we always get comments.  The latest negative feedback is how it sucks as Subversion is not a distributed version control system.  One just has to expect it if you're working in a public space.

Not enough time to contribute? I don't believe you ... I'd be happy
with even a couple of percent of the time that Scala users are getting
back in terms of productivity gains from using Scala over Java. And to
be clear, I'm not just calling for contributions for the Eclipse
plugin, I'm talking about the toolchain, the standard library,
Netbeans, Emacs, the whole shebang. We all benefit from a lively Scala
ecosystem.

Subversion has helped the Scala community indirectly.  Additionally, we're working on getting legal approval to open-sourcing a Scala database migration utility and some Spring integration code.

Regards,
Blair

--
Lift, the simply functional web framework http://liftweb.net
Beginning Scala http://www.apress.com/book/view/1430219890
Follow me: http://twitter.com/dpp
Git some: http://github.com/dpp

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:57 PM, David MacIver wrote:
> I think the key word to look at in there is "some".
>
> Naming no names, but while most of us are grumpy and irritable, I think by
> and large we try not to be condescending. :-)

I agree. #scala is a great resource. However I'd recommend timing
visits to be maximally out of sync with Australian timezones ;-)

Cheers,

Miles

David, I think you forgot your Emoticons/Clipart in that request.  I'm always happy to oblige though!

Miles -> <- Tony

EVERYONE  Scala !!!!!!!!

- Josh

P.S. If we agree to stop fighting on the mailing list, I'll agree to stop spamming you all with silly, pointless emails. ;)

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:44 PM, David MacIver <david.maciver@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

You might mistake absolute statements, a firm grip on meanings not in common use and a lack of tact for aggression.  Sometimes it probably is aggression, but usually it's not.

Incidentally, I think #scala is similar in friendliness to #haskell, not least thanks to yourself.

A distinction I've had to point out in the past: #scala is at least as *helpful* as #haskell. I would not say that we're as friendly. :-)

Miles, Tony, could you two take this off list? It's not even "move it to scala-debate" territory at this point.

Josh,

We can haz end of thread now?

Best wishes,

--greg

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Josh Suereth <joshua.suereth@gmail.com> wrote:

David, I think you forgot your Emoticons/Clipart in that request.  I'm always happy to oblige though!

Miles -> <- Tony

EVERYONE  Scala !!!!!!!!

- Josh

P.S. If we agree to stop fighting on the mailing list, I'll agree to stop spamming you all with silly, pointless emails. ;)

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:44 PM, David MacIver <david.maciver@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

You might mistake absolute statements, a firm grip on meanings not in common use and a lack of tact for aggression.  Sometimes it probably is aggression, but usually it's not.

Incidentally, I think #scala is similar in friendliness to #haskell, not least thanks to yourself.

A distinction I've had to point out in the past: #scala is at least as *helpful* as #haskell. I would not say that we're as friendly. :-)

Miles, Tony, could you two take this off list? It's not even "move it to scala-debate" territory at this point.

--
L.G. Meredith
Managing Partner
Biosimilarity LLC
806 55th St NE
Seattle, WA 98105

+1 206.650.3740

http://biosimilarity.blogspot.com

But...




On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Meredith Gregory <lgreg.meredith@gmail.com> wrote:

Josh,

We can haz end of thread now?

Best wishes,

--greg

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Josh Suereth <joshua.suereth@gmail.com> wrote:

David, I think you forgot your Emoticons/Clipart in that request.  I'm always happy to oblige though!

Miles -> <- Tony

EVERYONE  Scala !!!!!!!!

- Josh

P.S. If we agree to stop fighting on the mailing list, I'll agree to stop spamming you all with silly, pointless emails. ;)

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:44 PM, David MacIver <david.maciver@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Ricky Clarkson <ricky.clarkson@gmail.com> wrote:

You might mistake absolute statements, a firm grip on meanings not in common use and a lack of tact for aggression.  Sometimes it probably is aggression, but usually it's not.

Incidentally, I think #scala is similar in friendliness to #haskell, not least thanks to yourself.

A distinction I've had to point out in the past: #scala is at least as *helpful* as #haskell. I would not say that we're as friendly. :-)

Miles, Tony, could you two take this off list? It's not even "move it to scala-debate" territory at this point.

--
L.G. Meredith
Managing Partner
Biosimilarity LLC
806 55th St NE
Seattle, WA 98105

+1 206.650.3740

http://biosimilarity.blogspot.com

We're done now.

~~ Robert.

David MacIver wrote:
> But...
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 19, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Meredith Gregory
> > wrote:
>
> Josh,
>
> We can haz end of thread now?
>
> Best wishes,
>
> --greg
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 4:16 PM, Josh Suereth
> > wrote:
>
> David, I think you forgot your Emoticons/Clipart in that
> request. I'm always happy to oblige though!
>
> Miles -> <- Tony
>
> EVERYONE Scala !!!!!!!!
>
> - Josh
>
> P.S. If we agree to stop fighting on the mailing list, I'll
> agree to stop spamming you all with silly, pointless emails. ;)
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:44 PM, David MacIver
> > wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:39 PM, Ricky Clarkson
> > wrote:
>
> You might mistake absolute statements, a firm grip on
> meanings not in common use and a lack of tact for
> aggression. Sometimes it probably is aggression, but
> usually it's not.
>
> Incidentally, I think #scala is similar in
> friendliness to #haskell, not least thanks to yourself.
>
>
> A distinction I've had to point out in the past: #scala is
> at least as *helpful* as #haskell. I would not say that
> we're as friendly. :-)
>
> Miles, Tony, could you two take this off list? It's not
> even "move it to scala-debate" territory at this point.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> L.G. Meredith
> Managing Partner
> Biosimilarity LLC
> 806 55th St NE
> Seattle, WA 98105
>
> +1 206.650.3740
>
> http://biosimilarity.blogspot.com
>
>

Hi David,

dmoshal wrote:
> 2. It seems that the ide/compiler doesn't make much attempt to check that
> package names match package paths. Presumably that's a 'feature' of Scala,
> but it's also an easy was to make a mistake, and there ought to be an option
> to enforce this, or at least warn about this.

No, the compiler doesn't check this, and it is a feature, but I'd like
to understand better why this makes it easier to make a mistake. Surely
by removing the opportunity of putting a class in the wrong directory
the opposite is true?

Nevertheless, in my opinion (others may disagree), even having the
option to enforce package/path consistency would not be helpful because
it would encourage people to structure their projects this way. This
carryover from Java doesn't really offer much benefit, in particular
given Scala's differences with Java.

But if you could explain a bit more about the problems you had, I might
be persuaded otherwise...

Cheers,
Jon

Jon, perhaps I should clarify, I'm fine with class names not matching their
files, and potentially, I'm fine with package names not matching their
directory structure, if the IDE is able to flag when this might be a bug,
especially when it's clearly a bug, or at a minimum, behave consistently
between builds.

Let's take a specific example:

Assume you have a file with one class, com.a.Class A, in the directory
com/a/ClassA.scala

Now, you move that file to directory com/b and forget to change the package
name, ie: a bug is created.

In the case of Java developers, they (we) have adapted in the sense that we
expect, either:

a) the IDE will automatically refactor the package namespace, or

b) the IDE will flag the namespace violation (package name != directory
path).

Java developers have adapted to the behavior their tools (as have vi, emacs,
Netbeans, and IntelliJ users). It's not a value judgement, or a question of
being 'spoiled', but simply human adaptation.
Early hominids adapted to flint stones millions of years ago. One can only
imagine the chaos caused by the invention of the wheel. Presumably users of
pre-wheel vehicles forgot to put something under the wheels when they parked
their carts and numerous carts rolled down hills as a result. But let's get
back to the example:

We now have a perfectly valid Scala feature (I now understand it as a
feature, I didn't until I read the earlier post), in which we have
com.a.ClassA in path com/b/ClassA.scala
Potentially a useful feature, not unique to Scala, actionscript allows this
too.

So, here is where it becomes a problem:

Assume you have a second class, com.c.ClassC, in path com/c/ClassC.scala,
ie:

package com.c

import com.b.ClassA // bug, this is the path not the namespace

class ClassC
{
val a = new ClassA
}

So, wouldn't it be nice, if the IDE would, instead of saying:
"can't find ClassA" (inconsistently), it says:
"can't find com.b.ClassA, but, as your humble, diligent and obedient
servant, I have found com.a.ClassA in path com/b/ClassA.scala, would you
like me to fix this for you oh great master?".

I'm giving a simple example, but, when you have moved several directories
around, used wildcards, used find-replace, and/or, have potential name space
classes (ClassC in two different packages for example) there may not be a
deterministic solution, this I concede.

However, I submit that the current situation, in which the plugin behaves
unpredictably every time the project is 'cleaned', sometimes not finding
ClassA, sometimes finding ClassA, as Martin pointed out too, is suboptimal.
Either, it should consistently not find ClassA, or, if it can, it should
offer to fix the problem.

Again, I'm by no means saying that we should therefore all give up on
eclipse, and switch to vi, or give up on computers and go back to writing on
cave walls, all I'm saying is that there is a very frustrating bug, one that
will give the language a bad rap, especially for users who have adapted to
the Java environment, and which probably isn't all that difficult to fix.

I'd like to officially rename the subject of this thread:

"Scala: concise and expressive language. If you're coming from Java, note
that there are Scala namespace features that the extremely useful Eclipse
Scala Plugin Scala has not yet implemented fully, but the developers are
aware of the problem and are working on it."

As the person who created this thread, do I have the ability to rename it?

David

Jon Pretty wrote:
> Nevertheless, in my opinion (others may disagree), even having the
> option to enforce package/path consistency would not be helpful because
> it would encourage people to structure their projects this way. This
> carryover from Java doesn't really offer much benefit, in particular
> given Scala's differences with Java.

Java is fine with this too, actually:

Folder structure:

a/b/C.java

C.java:
package not.in.path;

public class C {
}

javac **/*.java

result:

a/b/C.class

javac **/*.java -d classes

result:

classes/not/in/path/C.class

Can't get what is a big deal.

I guess it's just an issue of consistency then, perhaps the price you pay for
incremental compilation.

At this point, I'm signing off the thread.
Hopefully my feedback was taken in the constructive spirit it was meant.

Dave