Newbie Reflections

As a scala-language lurker, I too was somewhat disappointed by the
tone of the responses. It's cast a bit of a shadow over my enthusiasm
for scala in the last few days. So should you be attacked once more,
you may at least feel that you have a modicum of company...

Alex

On 23 May 2011 22:04, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I apologize for having a bit of an emo-reaction last week, and thanks to all
> of you who replied privately to encourage me to return.  I usually have more
> patience for internet harshness, but (though I didn't know it at the time) I
> catching a cold so I was feeling very drained and my patience had
> significantly thinned.
>
> I do stand by what I said, though.  I subscribe to the Haskell Cafe list
> where people ask naive/silly questions all the time, and I have never seen
> anything remotely like the hostility I saw in response to Rex Kerr's musing
> and my own sincere querying, which is why I found it so shocking here.  It
> delivered a very negative impression.  You all might be used to it, but it
> is not inevitable, and casts your community in a poor light in comparison to
> others.
>
> Now, maybe I am basing this opinion on a completely unrepresentative sample
> experience, and I will not claim to have exactly exuded warm and fuzzies in
> my own personal reactions.  :-)  However, to the extent this kind of thing
> is the norm on the list, I would suggest that you all should probably be
> concerned about it rather than just accepting it as the way that things are.
>
> That's all I have to say on this subject.  It is not my intention to start a
> fight, I am just supplying feedback because I love the Scala language and
> really don't like the idea of people (including myself) being alienated from
> the community because of experiences like mine.  React to these words
> however you like, which includes ignoring them entirely if you wish.  :-)
>
> Also, please feel absolutely free to respond to this message by attacking me
> if it makes you feel better since my skin is much thicker this week (now
> that I have recovered from my cold);  however, it probably won't help
> anything much.  :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Greg
>

I'd like to add my "ditto" to that. :-) I'm subscribed to over 30
(technical, software related) mailing lists and this is by far the
most "violent" one. :-(

On 23 May 2011 14:18, Alex Wilson wrote:
> As a scala-language lurker, I too was somewhat disappointed by the
> tone of the responses. It's cast a bit of a shadow over my enthusiasm
> for scala in the last few days. So should you be attacked once more,
> you may at least feel that you have a modicum of company...
>
> Alex
>
> On 23 May 2011 22:04, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I apologize for having a bit of an emo-reaction last week, and thanks to all
>> of you who replied privately to encourage me to return.  I usually have more
>> patience for internet harshness, but (though I didn't know it at the time) I
>> catching a cold so I was feeling very drained and my patience had
>> significantly thinned.
>>
>> I do stand by what I said, though.  I subscribe to the Haskell Cafe list
>> where people ask naive/silly questions all the time, and I have never seen
>> anything remotely like the hostility I saw in response to Rex Kerr's musing
>> and my own sincere querying, which is why I found it so shocking here.  It
>> delivered a very negative impression.  You all might be used to it, but it
>> is not inevitable, and casts your community in a poor light in comparison to
>> others.
>>
>> Now, maybe I am basing this opinion on a completely unrepresentative sample
>> experience, and I will not claim to have exactly exuded warm and fuzzies in
>> my own personal reactions.  :-)  However, to the extent this kind of thing
>> is the norm on the list, I would suggest that you all should probably be
>> concerned about it rather than just accepting it as the way that things are.
>>
>> That's all I have to say on this subject.  It is not my intention to start a
>> fight, I am just supplying feedback because I love the Scala language and
>> really don't like the idea of people (including myself) being alienated from
>> the community because of experiences like mine.  React to these words
>> however you like, which includes ignoring them entirely if you wish.  :-)
>>
>> Also, please feel absolutely free to respond to this message by attacking me
>> if it makes you feel better since my skin is much thicker this week (now
>> that I have recovered from my cold);  however, it probably won't help
>> anything much.  :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Greg
>>
>

Hmm.  All of this suggests to me that we may need to think about the audiences of the different mailing lists.  To some degree, I suspect we're getting some bleed-over in approach from the more internally-focused lists (eg, scala-debate), where pretty strident debate is appropriate.  And there's history: Scala's just now hitting the big time, and the community is opening faster than I suspect people realize -- there are, plain and simply, more new folks coming in.
(And to be fair, I do think that the harsh responses were appropriate for the nitwit who kept posting badly-formed questions and didn't seem to be listening to the answers.  One such is fine; ten is getting downright rude.  It had a real "do my homework for me" flavor to it.)
But I do agree that this list is being perceived as a key public face of Scala, which people are coming into cold.  We probably either need to change that, or adjust the ground rules for the list accordingly, to better match what's expected from a first-contact group...

On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 5:39 PM, Hilco Wijbenga <hilco.wijbenga@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd like to add my "ditto" to that. :-) I'm subscribed to over 30
(technical, software related) mailing lists and this is by far the
most "violent" one. :-(

On 23 May 2011 14:18, Alex Wilson <alex_wilson@pobox.com> wrote:
> As a scala-language lurker, I too was somewhat disappointed by the
> tone of the responses. It's cast a bit of a shadow over my enthusiasm
> for scala in the last few days. So should you be attacked once more,
> you may at least feel that you have a modicum of company...
>
> Alex
>
> On 23 May 2011 22:04, Gregory Crosswhite <gcrosswhite@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> I apologize for having a bit of an emo-reaction last week, and thanks to all
>> of you who replied privately to encourage me to return.  I usually have more
>> patience for internet harshness, but (though I didn't know it at the time) I
>> catching a cold so I was feeling very drained and my patience had
>> significantly thinned.
>>
>> I do stand by what I said, though.  I subscribe to the Haskell Cafe list
>> where people ask naive/silly questions all the time, and I have never seen
>> anything remotely like the hostility I saw in response to Rex Kerr's musing
>> and my own sincere querying, which is why I found it so shocking here.  It
>> delivered a very negative impression.  You all might be used to it, but it
>> is not inevitable, and casts your community in a poor light in comparison to
>> others.
>>
>> Now, maybe I am basing this opinion on a completely unrepresentative sample
>> experience, and I will not claim to have exactly exuded warm and fuzzies in
>> my own personal reactions.  :-)  However, to the extent this kind of thing
>> is the norm on the list, I would suggest that you all should probably be
>> concerned about it rather than just accepting it as the way that things are.
>>
>> That's all I have to say on this subject.  It is not my intention to start a
>> fight, I am just supplying feedback because I love the Scala language and
>> really don't like the idea of people (including myself) being alienated from
>> the community because of experiences like mine.  React to these words
>> however you like, which includes ignoring them entirely if you wish.  :-)
>>
>> Also, please feel absolutely free to respond to this message by attacking me
>> if it makes you feel better since my skin is much thicker this week (now
>> that I have recovered from my cold);  however, it probably won't help
>> anything much.  :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Greg
>>
>

On 05/23/2011 02:49 PM, Justin du coeur wrote:
> (And to be fair, I do think that the harsh responses were appropriate
> for the nitwit who kept posting badly-formed questions and didn't seem
> to be listening to the answers. One such is fine; ten is getting
> downright rude. It had a real "do my homework for me" flavor to it.)

Indeed, it is perfectly understandable to react in such a manner, and
not being optimally diplomatic I myself fall pray to responding more
harshly than I should. However, I have noticed from those who are
better than I at this that it really pays off to be firm but diplomatic
even to the nitwits, because when people see that an online community
treats even the nitwits with courtesy it conveys an extremely positive
impression.

Cheers,
Greg

On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Gregory Crosswhite <gcrosswhite@gmail.com> wrote:

Indeed, it is perfectly understandable to react in such a manner, and not being optimally diplomatic I myself fall pray to responding more harshly than I should.  However, I have noticed from those who are better than I at this that it really pays off to be firm but diplomatic even to the nitwits, because when people see that an online community treats even the nitwits with courtesy it conveys an extremely positive impression.

I agree in principle, but I can't really fault the folks who got exasperated by it after a while...

On 23 May 2011 15:30, Justin du coeur wrote:
> On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 6:15 PM, Gregory Crosswhite
> wrote:
>>
>> Indeed, it is perfectly understandable to react in such a manner, and not
>> being optimally diplomatic I myself fall pray to responding more harshly
>> than I should.  However, I have noticed from those who are better than I at
>> this that it really pays off to be firm but diplomatic even to the nitwits,
>> because when people see that an online community treats even the nitwits
>> with courtesy it conveys an extremely positive impression.
>
> I agree in principle, but I can't really fault the folks who got exasperated
> by it after a while...

I completely understand what you mean but ... it's a mailing list.
There is no need to reply immediately or to reply at all. If you can't
reply politely then wait a while until you can or simply ignore the
message. After all, the best way to deal with trolls is to ignore
them.

Always being polite sends a very strong, positive message to the other
people in the online community (I completely agree with what Greg
writes above). But wait, there's more! ;-) It's quite common nowadays
to do a Google search to find out more about a potential
colleague/employee. If such a search listed several "harsh responses",
then I think that would hurt the subject's chances to get the job. *I*
certainly would not hire such a person. If a person can't even control
his/her emotions on a mailing list (where you can take all the time
you want to compose your answer) then I would truly dread having to
deal with this person in real life... :-)

There are several mailing lists that don't have this problem and that
reach many times more people than scala-language does. So I don't see
why scala-language couldn't work the same way. (Unfortunately, the
"harsh-words-are-okay" mindset seems to be firmly entrenched now so
it'll probably take some real effort to turn things around. Also, I
don't think that having a policy that says it's not okay on *this*
mailing list (e.g. scala-language) but it *is* okay on *that* one
(e.g. scala-debate) is going to work. In my opinion, it should not be
okay [or necessary] on *any* mailing list.)

Greg,

I just looked over the thread I assume you're referring to (about
allowing negative Seq indices) and I don't see why you are the one
apologizing. Jim Balter and Paul Phillips were unnecessarily rude to
you; they should be the ones to apologize.

By the way, as to the original proposal, you can get roughly similar
behavior already: seq(-2) should be roughly equivalent to
seq.view.reverse(1), which you can do right now. Note that this does
impose a performance penalty versus seq(seq.size - 1) unless you cache
the view object (i.e. store the result of seq.view.reverse somewhere).
Constructing the views seems to about double the time needed. For what
it's worth. :)

Alex

As the one who started that thread, it's nice to see I wasn't the only one who felt a little put-upon by some of the responses I got. I'd made it perfectly clear in the subject that I didn't expect Scala to ever implement such features, and that basically I was making an idle comparison with a feature I'd found convenient in another language. I really didn't expect people to get so serious about it.
I have been corrected for posting to the "wrong" Scala thread, but always nicely. It's been my experience that the _only_ time one ever needs to get rude or unpleasant is when dealing with someone who keeps doing the same wrong things in spite of polite directives to the contrary. Then some anger (real or assumed) may work. But that is very, very rare. In fact, the only time I've ever had to do it is to get though to a supervisor at a call center when disputing a billing issue. (It turned out I was right but, sigh, the way med. insurance companies work these days is to try to make the system too complex for the average person to negotiate. Ah, but I digress.)
Oh well. It's always nice to be reminded that politeness almost always pays off.
Ken

I lolled.

On 24/05/11 07:04, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I apologize for having a bit of an emo-reaction last week, and thanks
> to all of you who replied privately to encourage me to return. I
> usually have more patience for internet harshness, but (though I
> didn't know it at the time) I catching a cold so I was feeling very
> drained and my patience had significantly thinned.
>
> I do stand by what I said, though. I subscribe to the Haskell Cafe
> list where people ask naive/silly questions all the time, and I have
> never seen anything remotely like the hostility I saw in response to
> Rex Kerr's musing and my own sincere querying, which is why I found it
> so shocking here. It delivered a very negative impression. You all
> might be used to it, but it is not inevitable, and casts your
> community in a poor light in comparison to others.
>
> Now, maybe I am basing this opinion on a completely unrepresentative
> sample experience, and I will not claim to have exactly exuded warm
> and fuzzies in my own personal reactions. :-) However, to the extent
> this kind of thing is the norm on the list, I would suggest that you
> all should probably be concerned about it rather than just accepting
> it as the way that things are.
>
> That's all I have to say on this subject. It is not my intention to
> start a fight, I am just supplying feedback because I love the Scala
> language and really don't like the idea of people (including myself)
> being alienated from the community because of experiences like mine.
> React to these words however you like, which includes ignoring them
> entirely if you wish. :-)
>
> Also, please feel absolutely free to respond to this message by
> attacking me if it makes you feel better since my skin is much thicker
> this week (now that I have recovered from my cold); however, it
> probably won't help anything much. :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Greg

http://memegenerator.net/instance/7936963
http://memegenerator.net/imageboard/thread/7004

On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 9:48 PM, Tony Morris <tonymorris@gmail.com> wrote:

I lolled.

On 24/05/11 07:04, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I apologize for having a bit of an emo-reaction last week, and thanks
> to all of you who replied privately to encourage me to return.  I
> usually have more patience for internet harshness, but (though I
> didn't know it at the time) I catching a cold so I was feeling very
> drained and my patience had significantly thinned.
>
> I do stand by what I said, though.  I subscribe to the Haskell Cafe
> list where people ask naive/silly questions all the time, and I have
> never seen anything remotely like the hostility I saw in response to
> Rex Kerr's musing and my own sincere querying, which is why I found it
> so shocking here.  It delivered a very negative impression.  You all
> might be used to it, but it is not inevitable, and casts your
> community in a poor light in comparison to others.
>
> Now, maybe I am basing this opinion on a completely unrepresentative
> sample experience, and I will not claim to have exactly exuded warm
> and fuzzies in my own personal reactions.  :-)  However, to the extent
> this kind of thing is the norm on the list, I would suggest that you
> all should probably be concerned about it rather than just accepting
> it as the way that things are.
>
> That's all I have to say on this subject.  It is not my intention to
> start a fight, I am just supplying feedback because I love the Scala
> language and really don't like the idea of people (including myself)
> being alienated from the community because of experiences like mine.
> React to these words however you like, which includes ignoring them
> entirely if you wish.  :-)
>
> Also, please feel absolutely free to respond to this message by
> attacking me if it makes you feel better since my skin is much thicker
> this week (now that I have recovered from my cold);  however, it
> probably won't help anything much.  :-)
>
> Cheers,
> Greg


--
Tony Morris
http://tmorris.net/

On Monday May 23 2011, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> ...
>
> Cheers,
> Greg

I suspect there's a mismatch between and subsequent violation of
expectations among at least some of the parties involved.

Newcomers who introduce themselves to the community with requests to
change the language and its libraries are way out of line by
definition. Letting in every little thing someone thinks might be a
good idea is one primary path by which bad languages (and other bad
information technology in general) come to be.

If you want to be respected when you suggest changes, at least pay your
dues and learn the language and become known by the community, first.
That's at a minimum. Making some kind of contribution, whether by
helping others who come behind you to learn the language or by writing
and contributing code put you in much better standing, from which you
may reasonably suggest changes. With knowledge of the language you may
even find yourself reconsidering your naive suggestions.

Randall Schulz

On 5/23/11 9:12 PM, Randall R Schulz wrote:
> On Monday May 23 2011, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Greg
>
> I suspect there's a mismatch between and subsequent violation of
> expectations among at least some of the parties involved.
>
> Newcomers who introduce themselves to the community with requests to
> change the language and its libraries are way out of line by
> definition. Letting in every little thing someone thinks might be a
> good idea is one primary path by which bad languages (and other bad
> information technology in general) come to be.
>
> If you want to be respected when you suggest changes, at least pay your
> dues and learn the language and become known by the community, first.
> That's at a minimum. Making some kind of contribution, whether by
> helping others who come behind you to learn the language or by writing
> and contributing code put you in much better standing, from which you
> may reasonably suggest changes. With knowledge of the language you may
> even find yourself reconsidering your naive suggestions.
>
>
> Randall Schulz

Randall,

Thank you for your feedback, but I think you misunderstood my
intentions. I wasn't trying to convince anyone into adding a feature
into scala at all --- in fact, I myself used the phrase "probably
naively" to describe my own thoughts on the matter. I was just musing
and asking questions because I wanted to talk about scala, this list
seemed to be a good place to do it, that thread in particular was about
a topic in which I was interested, and for once I actually had something
to say. I was a little surprised that rather than being enlightened as
to exactly why I was wrong --- as, again, I am accustomed to on other
programming language mailing lists such as Haskell Cafe --- I instead
seemed to be jumped on and criticized for having the incredibly audacity
to even *talk* about the possibility of adding a method to the
collection classes.

Besides which, what exactly is out of line with a newbie saying, "Hi!
I'd like to request feature X."? Of course, if the newbie is being
obnoxious then that is certainly unreasonable, but otherwise it seems
like perfectly reasonable feedback to me --- just as it is equally
reasonable for everyone to politely disregard it. :-) (Of course,
bonus points will be awarded for a reply explaining why that feature
will not be implemented and/or is a bad idea!)

Finally, you should perhaps not be making too many assumptions about my
ignorance regarding scala. I am not an expert in the language by far,
but I am much more familiar with the ins and outs of it and the
collection classes in particular than you seem to give me credit for.
It's just that those of you who have actually hacked on these things
know even more than me about the collection classes since you have had
to design and write them and I have only been using them, which is why I
was looking forward to hearing your particular thoughts on why my
suggestion wouldn't work rather than being told "WOOSH!" and criticized
for having been so audacious as to even broach the subject.

In conclusion, if you don't have the time or inclination to say anything
nice to someone asking an ignorant question, then perhaps it would be
best just to not say anything at all and let those who are better at
such things answer on your behalf, since that way you get to spend more
time coding!!! :-D

Respectfully yours,
Gregory Crosswhite

I think when the main language designer and the main codebase maintainer says no you should probably take the hint. ;)

On 23 May 2011 23:04, Gregory Crosswhite <gcrosswhite@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey everyone,

I apologize for having a bit of an emo-reaction last week, and thanks to all of you who replied privately to encourage me to return.  I usually have more patience for internet harshness, but (though I didn't know it at the time) I catching a cold so I was feeling very drained and my patience had significantly thinned.

I do stand by what I said, though.  I subscribe to the Haskell Cafe list where people ask naive/silly questions all the time, and I have never seen anything remotely like the hostility I saw in response to Rex Kerr's musing and my own sincere querying, which is why I found it so shocking here.  It delivered a very negative impression.  You all might be used to it, but it is not inevitable, and casts your community in a poor light in comparison to others.

Now, maybe I am basing this opinion on a completely unrepresentative sample experience, and I will not claim to have exactly exuded warm and fuzzies in my own personal reactions.  :-)  However, to the extent this kind of thing is the norm on the list, I would suggest that you all should probably be concerned about it rather than just accepting it as the way that things are.

That's all I have to say on this subject.  It is not my intention to start a fight, I am just supplying feedback because I love the Scala language and really don't like the idea of people (including myself) being alienated from the community because of experiences like mine.  React to these words however you like, which includes ignoring them entirely if you wish.  :-)

Also, please feel absolutely free to respond to this message by attacking me if it makes you feel better since my skin is much thicker this week (now that I have recovered from my cold);  however, it probably won't help anything much.  :-)

Cheers,
Greg

On 5/23/11 10:01 PM, Trond Olsen wrote:
> I think when the main language designer and the main codebase
> maintainer says no you should probably take the hint. ;)

But you see, that's exactly the problem. My question wasn't, "Guys,
will you add this feature to scala?", it was, "Guys, I don't understand,
why is my naive notion for how to add this feature wrong?", and so
that's why the answer "NO!!!" caught me entirely off-guard. It is a
really bad idea to presume that someone you don't know who is asking a
question is obviously not *really* asking you a question with a genuine
desire to hear the answer but rather is *actually* maliciously prodding
you into adding a stupid feature despite having just been told it's a
bad idea.

I almost didn't reply to this since, despite all evidence to the
contrary, I didn't want to turn this thread into *too* much of a rant
:-), but I think that it is a really important point that it is a bad
idea for a community to presume that newcomers asking questions are
doing so to be annoying and with the intent of prodding the community
into getting their way rather than to learn; after all, you have
*plenty* of time to change your mind and start blasting the person if he
or she eventually show clear signs of not actually being sincere in
their questions, but you don't get a second chance to make a good first
impression or to take back a really negative first impression.

Cheers,
Greg

Most of them are busy people so I think you're being a bit unreasonable. You'll have plenty of time to repent though. Let's say, answer some 1200 newbie question in detail. :)

On 24 May 2011 07:54, Gregory Crosswhite <gcrosswhite@gmail.com> wrote:

On 5/23/11 10:01 PM, Trond Olsen wrote:

I think when the main language designer and the main codebase maintainer says no you should probably take the hint. ;)

But you see, that's exactly the problem.  My question wasn't, "Guys, will you add this feature to scala?", it was, "Guys, I don't understand, why is my naive notion for how to add this feature wrong?", and so that's why the answer "NO!!!" caught me entirely off-guard.  It is a really bad idea to presume that someone you don't know who is asking a question is obviously not *really* asking you a question with a genuine desire to hear the answer but rather is *actually* maliciously prodding you into adding a stupid feature despite having just been told it's a bad idea.

I almost didn't reply to this since, despite all evidence to the contrary, I didn't want to turn this thread into *too* much of a rant :-), but I think that it is a really important point that it is a bad idea for a community to presume that newcomers asking questions are doing so to be annoying and with the intent of prodding the community into getting their way rather than to learn;  after all, you have *plenty* of time to change your mind and start blasting the person if he or she eventually show clear signs of not actually being sincere in their questions, but you don't get a second chance to make a good first impression or to take back a really negative first impression.

Cheers,
Greg

I didn't think Paul's comment was that big a deal, but Gregory's general point here is important, IMHO.

The number of threads that get irreversably derailed by unnecessarily brusque or rude comments has been a real irritant in the Scala lists, this year more so than previously.  The vast majority of posters are consistently patient and helpful, and I really hope that the overall impression people get of the "culture" of the list isn't discoloured by this kind of thing.

Ken

I think you guys are being unfair to Paul here, in singling him out like
this. The guy does a prodigious amount of work for Scala, and he is
painfully aware of the impact of adding ill-considered features to the
language/library and their unforeseen interactions with the rest of the
code.

So when someone comes along and blissfully suggests "hey, let's add this
shiny new feature, should be easy to implement", and then repeatedly
insists "why not? why can't we add it? why? why?", I can absolutely
sympathize with someone like Paul feeling frustrated or even exasperated
at having to explain, nay, justify once again how adding small
inconsistent features to the language leads to death by thousand cuts.

Sometimes this frustration might show through in his comments. He is not
a robot.

Besides, I re-read the thread in question, and maybe Paul's comments
could be described as a little brusque, but certainly not rude or
downright insulting as seems to be implied here.

On 24.05.2011 10:16, Ken Scambler wrote:
> I didn't think Paul's comment was that big a deal, but Gregory's general
> point here is important, IMHO.
>
> The number of threads that get irreversably derailed by unnecessarily
> brusque or rude comments has been a real irritant in the Scala lists,
> this year more so than previously. The vast majority of posters are
> consistently patient and helpful, and I really hope that the overall
> impression people get of the "culture" of the list isn't discoloured by
> this kind of thing.
>
> Ken

Hi Ivan,
100% agreed, I apologise if it came across otherwise.

On 24/05/2011 7:08 PM, "Ivan Todoroski" <grnch_lists@gmx.net> wrote:
> I think you guys are being unfair to Paul here, in singling him out like
> this. The guy does a prodigious amount of work for Scala, and he is
> painfully aware of the impact of adding ill-considered features to the
> language/library and their unforeseen interactions with the rest of the
> code.
>
> So when someone comes along and blissfully suggests "hey, let's add this
> shiny new feature, should be easy to implement", and then repeatedly
> insists "why not? why can't we add it? why? why?", I can absolutely
> sympathize with someone like Paul feeling frustrated or even exasperated
> at having to explain, nay, justify once again how adding small
> inconsistent features to the language leads to death by thousand cuts.
>
> Sometimes this frustration might show through in his comments. He is not
> a robot.
>
> Besides, I re-read the thread in question, and maybe Paul's comments
> could be described as a little brusque, but certainly not rude or
> downright insulting as seems to be implied here.
>
>
>
> On 24.05.2011 10:16, Ken Scambler wrote:
>> I didn't think Paul's comment was that big a deal, but Gregory's general
>> point here is important, IMHO.
>>
>> The number of threads that get irreversably derailed by unnecessarily
>> brusque or rude comments has been a real irritant in the Scala lists,
>> this year more so than previously. The vast majority of posters are
>> consistently patient and helpful, and I really hope that the overall
>> impression people get of the "culture" of the list isn't discoloured by
>> this kind of thing.
>>
>> Ken
>

I agree 100%. I have been mostly a lurker on the list, trying to learn a thing or two and have always found this list to be very helpful and friendly. Let's get back to coding, shall we?

On May 24, 2011, at 5:09 AM, Ivan Todoroski wrote:

think you guys are being unfair to Paul here, in singling him out like this. The guy does a prodigious amount of work for Scala, and he is painfully aware of the impact of adding ill-considered features to the language/library and their unforeseen interactions with the rest of the code.

So when someone comes along and blissfully suggests "hey, let's add this shiny new feature, should be easy to implement", and then repeatedly insists "why not? why can't we add it? why? why?", I can absolutely sympathize with someone like Paul feeling frustrated or even exasperated at having to explain, nay, justify once again how adding small inconsistent features to the language leads to death by thousand cuts.

Sometimes this frustration might show through in his comments. He is not a robot.

Besides, I re-read the thread in question, and maybe Paul's comments could be described as a little brusque, but certainly not rude or downright insulting as seems to be implied here.

On 23/05/2011 23:04, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:
> Hey everyone,
> [...]

Hello Gregory,

I was a beginner not so much time ago (well... ok, 3 years ago,
already...), and I do enjoyed the Scala mailing lists and IRC channel.
At that time, I discovered them full of very helpfull and brilliant
people, and Scala community was one of the most enjoyable I had been
part of - and I think it still is.

Now, what you experienced seems to be quite the opposite. That clearly
may be a problem if your case is not just an exceptionnal one and other
newbees feel the same, because I don't think it shows the very nature of
the Scala community. In that case, well, I think you are encourage to
stay to at least show us what I mean, to be polite to

Perhaps there is also some refinement to be made about the scala list
topic. Perhaps scala-language goal is not clear compared to
scala-user/scala-debate. And perhaps that thread should have gone to
scala-debate in the first place.

Well, that's all, just random thoughts.

Indeed...

I haven't been here long but I do understand that scala-lang is for
actual scala language design related talk
while scala-users tends to be for How Do I Do This? type threads...

On 24 May 2011 19:01, Francois wrote:
> On 23/05/2011 23:04, Gregory Crosswhite wrote:
>>
>> Hey everyone,
>> [...]
>
> Hello Gregory,
>
> I was a beginner not so much time ago (well... ok, 3 years ago, already...),
> and I do enjoyed the Scala mailing lists and IRC channel.
> At that time, I discovered them full of very helpfull and brilliant people,
> and Scala community was one of the most enjoyable I had been part of - and I
> think it still is.
>
> Now, what you experienced seems to be quite the opposite. That clearly may
> be a problem if your case is not just an exceptionnal one and other newbees
> feel the same, because I don't think it shows the very nature of the Scala
> community. In that case, well, I think you are encourage to stay to at least
> show us what I mean, to be polite to
>
> Perhaps there is also some refinement to be made about the scala list topic.
> Perhaps scala-language goal is not clear compared to
> scala-user/scala-debate. And perhaps that thread should have gone to
> scala-debate in the first place.
>
> Well, that's all, just  random thoughts.
>
> --
> Francois ARMAND
> http://fanf42.blogspot.com
> http://www.normation.com
>
>